Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  reniaa

  Reniaa...I have not been online all weekend and am not going to reply to anything past that was written by others here...I will jump in right here...

  you said

  hi deputy dog your scriptures are ones I agree with certainly that no amount of good works on our part could save us before jesus is a given but does that mean we assumed as saved people we a no longer have to avoid sinning?

  My answer....I do believe in once saved always saved. Let me explain. When one is truly saved they WILL NOT intentionally sin. Yes, they may slip up and fall back into sin...but they will not cherish sin. They will look at sin differently. They will try to avoid sinning. Not that I am judge...but in a scenario where one claims to be saved yet constantly goes back into sin INTENTIONALLY AND CHERISHES IT...I would then question whether they are truly saved.

  Salvation itself is a free gift...not earned or brought about in any way, shape or form by works. Works do not earn us favor before Jehovah with the hopes that at judgment day he will feel we did enough so can make it in. It is faith.

  I agree with nearly all you said but the last, if faith alone is/was enough what is the purpose of this scripture in james 2?

  14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

  18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
  Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

  19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

  20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless [ d ] ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," [ e ] and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

  25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  this is probably one of the most contraversial scriptures in the bible in defining what the intent of it is? I've read many attempts at defining it but it does seem to show that some action on our part is needed even though the gift is free.
• 

  isaacaustin

  14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

  18 But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
  Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

  19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

  20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless [ d ] ? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," [ e ] and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

  25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

  this is probably one of the most contraversial scriptures in the bible in defining what the intent of it is? I've read many attempts at defining it but it does seem to show that some action on our part is needed even though the gift is free.

  Ok Reniaa. Faith without works is dead to who? Verse 21- works justified Abraham to who? Verse 23 clearly says not to God. Verse 23 clearly says Abraham was justified by his faith- LONG before isaac was even born. Romans ch 4 expands on this:

  	Rom 4:1	¶	What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
  	Rom 4:2		For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
  	Rom 4:3		For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
  	Rom 4:4		Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
  	Rom 4:5	¶	But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

  It confirms James 23 and explains in more detail Abraham was justified to flesh- man. It says plainly that a person justified by works has grounds for boasting. It says in the same verse NO ONE can have grounds for boasting before God. Clearly, obviously Abraham's works justifed him before man, NOT before God. Clearly James ch 2 is about showing our faith (which saves us) to others by our works. Other people can not see our faith by reading our hearts. To man, faith without works is dead, or useless. Only God can see it.

  This is further summed up well in Ephesians:

  	Eph 2:8		For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
  	Eph 2:9		Not of works, lest any man should boast.
  	Eph 2:10		For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

  Works has nothing to do with being saved, again. Works will naturally followi n the life of one who is saved.

  Clear cut here.
• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa,

  You said

  this is probably one of the most contraversial scriptures in the bible in defining what the intent of it is? I've read many attempts at defining it but it does seem to show that some action on our part is needed even though the gift is free.

  My reply:

  Rom 11:6

  And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Paul says plainly here that if works are required in any way, shape or form it is no longer a free gift. They are mutually exclusive. They can not mix. It can only be grace or works.
• 

  isaacaustin

  the only action on our part is stated by Jesus himself:

  	Jhn 6:28		Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
  	Jhn 6:29		Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
• 

  isaacaustin

  19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

  Yes they believe- but do they have faith? Do they TRUST? Absolutely not.
• 

  jgnat

  ... wish I could agree with you more...you and I are different faiths ... different circumstances....

  You are such an interesting contradiction, reniaa. It is as if you only hear what you expect to hear, unless it is explicitly pointed out to you. What if we concentrated on our commonalities for a while? You might find we have a great more in common than you care to admit. For instance, we both have reasoning minds created by God. Our cultural roots are nearly identical, and we have the bible in common as context.

  What makes it innacurate? tying a shoe is not like doing a festival the principles involved are about our relationship with God, here are the scriptures: deut 12:30... leviticus 18:1...

  Both under the law, I see. Are you not free from those? Based on those scriptures, there is absolutely nothing wrong with Mother's Day, Father's Day, or Thanksgiving.

  Where "accuracy" ties in is my husband's claim that Christ's birth should NOT be celebrated at Christmas time, because we are reasonably certain that is not the date of his birth. We know the date was moved up to help the newly converted pagans switch over from their winter solstice holiday to a Christian holiday. My claim stands. "Accuracy" in this respect is pointless. Who cares what day we celebrate Christ's birth? There is nothing wrong with the act of celebration itself.

  whether people agree or not there is a biblical basis as with most things it's down to whether you personally think something would be pleasing to God or not.

  Logs and slivers. I think we wound God more every day by creating barriers between us. Mothers love their sons. Sisters and brothers love each other. Husband and wife are tender, accepting, and affectionate. Freinds are there for each other. We help our neighbour out of the ditch. We get together to eat and share and don't quibble about the date.

  Another example of the Witness distinction with no difference is my husband's extreme aversion to all Christian music. He shows rather a strong preference to secular music from the fifties and sixties. This puzzled me for a long time. After all, there are many great hymns that should be no offence to a Witness. For example,

  Handel's Messiah http://www.worshipmap.com/lyrics/messiahtext.html

  How Great Thou Art

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q8ESzK5pCw

  There are many Christian songs based directly on scripture. Yet Witnesses abstian from them all. Why?
• 

  mrsjones5

  Another example of the Witness distinction with no difference is my husband's extreme aversion to all Christian music. He shows rather a strong preference to secular music from the fifties and sixties. This puzzled me for a long time. After all, there are many great hymns that should be no offence to a Witness.

  It's like throwing holy water on a vampire
• 

  OUTLAW

  Reniaa..Still not answering Questions eh?..I won`t be as impolite as you..I`ll actually answer yours..............The Birth of Jesus "was" Celebrated..Someone layered it over a pagan holiday..Someone else tossed in Santa.......So what?.......The Birth of Jesus was Celebrated.That celebration originated from Gods own Angels.So don`t tell me it`s origins are pagan!......If the Birth of Jesus replaced a Pagan Holiday so what?..If people want to give gifts at that time,so what?..If advertising Company`s want to toss in Santa,so what?.....It`s still a Celebration of the Birth of Jesus!..If Christmas were changed to the actual Birth date of Jesus,Jehovah`s Witness`s still would not Celebrate it..They would still be preaching against it!..If you don`t want to celebrate the Birth of Jesus,I could really care less.....Trying to Pass off the Celebration of Jesus`s birth as Pagan,is an out right Lie!..The Bible proves you to be a Liar!!.....You tried to pass off the word "Celebration" as the word "Party".Neither the Dictionary nor the Thesaurus support you on that..Another Lie!.......You claimed to have answered my questions through out your thread..I told you you had not answered my Questions..Finally on page 12,you tell me you reject my questions!..If you reject my Questions then how could you have answered them?..Your caught in another Lie!..Your own words Betray you!!!..Liar!!.................Your not an Honest Person!..You`ll make a Great Jehovah`s Witness!!..LOL!!.....OUTLAW
• 

  isaacaustin

  No rebuts to my points made on the James verses you took out of context either?
• 

  reniaa

  hi there jgnat

  You might find we have a great more in common than you care to admit

  there are many commonalities in all the christian faiths but jehovah's witnesses and other faiths that don't support the trinity have one big difference that makes one massive barrier...Jesus is not seen as God and the song you used was singing about God with the usual trinity theme words while it is very nice it's like a jarring note running through the tune.

  How do you feel if your hubby plays a kingdom melody on Jehovah or you hear one at the kingdom hall would not that be a jarring note for you?

  My own dislike is to have praise to jesus as God and hallelujah in the same song its so ambigious to any who know the true meaning of hallelujah.

  Even if I never became a witness my feelings on the bible means I could never join a christian faith that worshiped Jesus as God, that probably makes 97% of all christian faiths unavailable to me, I will always be an Arian christian.

  ps mother's day does have pagan roots, father's day was just a 20th century addition to mother's day, and thanksgiving is a harvest festival which themselve have pagan roots but paganism isn't the only reason the holidays aren't observed.

  Reniaa