Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

by reniaa 407 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  JG, there have been other Gospels discovered. None mention a date for Jesus' birth,
  but the churches have done a good job of ignoring the "lost gospels" and telling people
  that they are not part of God's Word.

  This pretty much show us that we would not change the date for Christmas. It's bigger
  than truth now. The whole world is comfortable with it's festive December. Now, they
  have Kwanza and a disproportionately large Chanukah and even Ramadan in December.
  Christmas spills right over into the New Year's Celebration. The people like it that way
  before the long Winter totally settles in.
• 

  sacolton

  I'm curious about the JW mindset ...

  Is it true that if the Governing Body says "Hey, we researched Christmas and we think it's okay to celebrate it again!" ... does the R&F just automatically accept it too? No questions asked? No rioting in the streets? It's like a switch is flipped in their minds? Really, is it THAT simple?
• 

  isaacaustin

  I think so sacolton. At least with many. Those who are not into deep thinking but simply follow the WT like drones would be more than happy. Many of the old-timers would have quite a difficult time with this.
• 

  Junction-Guy

  Yeah it is pretty much that simple,
  
  The thing is the JW org would never do that so drastically--They are very slick. They tend to implement things slowly at a time to make them more palatable.
• 

  reniaa

  hi there jgnat i couldn't resist coming back before the end :) two months now?

  Sorry when I said sex I should have qualified it as fornication clearly defined as wrong biblically but would be laughed at by the average person now, were waiting till you are married is an alien concept and growing more so.

  I appreciate your viewpoint as someone who has never bought into the Witness viewpoint :)

  Hi doom voyager :)

  Reniaa, do you wear a wedding ring? If you are unmarried, would you wear a wedding ring? Are you aware that the giving of a ring during marriage ceremonies was first practiced by Germanic pagans... and that the ring symbolized Ouroboros, a very "satanic"-looking serpent god who continually ate his own tail, giving him the shape of a ring? Furthemore, rings were also attached to swords as good luck charms in battle.

  Lol i've been married twice and wore a ring both time but both marriages were while I wasn't a witness and in both cases I stopped wearing the ring fairly quickly because my fingers got allergic, I had no compulsion to find a way to continue wearing them and didn't feel less married for not wearing them, Like I've said before, a wedding ring is a gnat in comparison to a camel when you compare it's paganess to christmas pagan rituals all still practiced and for the benefit of those that like the I's dotted although it's easily googled, this is the first google one that comes up, a bit brief but covers most points

  http://www.essortment.com/all/christmaspagan_rece.htm

  No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

  The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.

  In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

  In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

  Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

  The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.

  In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

  Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.”

  The controversy continues even today in some fundamentalist sects.
• 

  mrsjones5

  The people like it that way
  before the long Winter totally settles in.

  I love Christmas lights

  

  Now imagine the whole world under watchtower control

  Dark, dreary, depressing....ick
• 

  isaacaustin

  Lol i've been married twice and wore a ring both time but both marriages were while I wasn't a witness and in both cases I stopped wearing the ring fairly quickly because my fingers got allergic, I had no compulsion to find a way to continue wearing them and didn't feel less married for not wearing them, Like I've said before, a wedding ring is a gnat in comparison to a camel when you compare it's paganess to christmas pagan rituals all still practiced and for the benefit of those that like the I's dotted although it's easily googled, this is the first google one that comes up, a bit brief but covers most points

  Who decides what is a gnat or a camel Reniaa? And regarding what you posted as to the pagan origin of the tree that is very debatable.

  So, I again ask for a clear cut, direct answer as to where the bible clearly says to ro shows one to abstain from Christmas, or birthdays?

  I have shown you Romans 14 which deals extensively with the use of one's own conscience and not to judge others based on their observance of days. This would directly seem to rule out the practice of disfellowshipping due to one's celebrating of a day.

  If you want to apply the pagan origin rule you must do it blanketly and consistently- not only to what the Wt calls a bigger issue.

  Please give direct answers to these points.
• 

  Junction-Guy

  Here is the way I see it--Those Christian traditions such as the yule log, etc etc are not inherently wrong in themselves, and they are not pagan so long as you are not doing them in worship to a false God.
  
  If you light a yule log and say a prayer to Mithras, then you are doing a pagan act. If you simply just light the yule log for decorations sake, then no it is not pagan. Therefore while Christmas may have pagan roots, Christmas today is very much a Christian holiday. I don't believe you will be judged for celebrating Christmas, I simply don't see it. I do believe that God may judge those who are affiliated with the JW org. I would much rather be in Saint Nicks shoes than Judge Rutherford's or Freddy Franz.
  
  So if you don't want to celebrate christmas, then fine that is your choice, no one should force you to celebrate it. You are an adult and free to make your own choices. I do feel compassion towards your kids (if you have any) for they may never get to experience the joy of Christmas.
• 

  Mary

  Does the fact that the bible does not mention something mean that it's wrong to celebrate it?

  Reniaa said: but I would say by the same token the fact of it's not being mentioned doesn't make it right celebrate it either!

  Which means: It should be left up to the individual as to whether or not they want to celebrate something. 2 Corinthians1:24 says: "...Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing...."

  The fact that the Governing Body has made celebrating a holiday, for which there is no condemnation in the bible, a disfellowshipping offense is going far "beyond what is written" and proves that they indeed want to be "masters over your faith".

  If I apply biblical principles to christmas it fails on a number of counts for me personally

  And that's entirely up to you. If an individual doesn't want to celebrate Christmas, they don't have to. But that does not mean that those in the congregation who might want to celebrate it should be viewed as 'celebrating something pagan' and are somehow, not really Christians, yet that is exactly how JW's view it.

  with the lies involved (santa is an accepted mythical figure)

  Oh please. First of all, I noticed you have not addressed the fact that many wedding traditions, from the ring itself, to the wearing of the wedding veil, to the honeymoon, can all be traced to the 'pagans.' You completely ignore all of that, yet you zero in on the "lies" told about Santa Claus. What about all the lies the WTS has told us for the last 140 years?? Oh I forgot....those weren't "lies", they were all just "present truths".

  and do you not see in having him side by side with jesus it's begging for people to also see jesus as less than real by association?

  No, I see no such thing and only the truly idiotic would put Santa on the same level and Jesus. Where do you come up with this crap? Oh I forgot: the Kingdumb Hall.

  as i've said before it smacks more of worship than of just a fluffy holiday for fun which supposedly can be done or not at your own decretion

  Oh bullshit. Since when can you personally know how most people on planet earth view the celebration of Christmas Reniaa? Your assertion that Christmas 'smacks of worship' is completely irrelavant to the discussion and is nothing but a lame attempt on your part to villify a holiday that the WTS has deemed unacceptable.

  simply by people's reaction and treatment of me if I choose not to do it

  Really? And what's your reaction and treatment of those who choose to celebrate it? Certain phrases come to mind whenever a Witness talks about those who celebrate Christmas. Phrases like 'Babylon the Great', "False Religion" "pagan", 'Creature worship", 'vessels fit for destruction", etc. You view the treatment that you might get as 'persecution', yet you do the exact same thing to them. Of course, that's not a 'double-standard', right?

  if the pagan part is meaningless then why are we so driven to make sure all the 'traditions' of christmas are observed each one of these are pagan and have definite meanings from the tree to holly etc

  Do you not get it? The 'pagan' meanings of many of the Christmas traditions have lost their original meaning. Which part of that don't you understand? Much of what we have in our Society today has 'pagan' roots. Just look at the days of the week. Where do you think they came from? Here's something for you to chew on Reniaa: Since you're so concerned with how Christmas was originally a pagan Roman holiday where they worshipped the Sun God, what about using the word "Sunday". Do you know where that originates from? Here's a clue: Dies solis means the day of the sun, from which we get Sunday. Sun worship was marked by the use of the halo, or nimbus, which originated with the pagan Greeks and Romans to represent their sun god, Helios.

  Wait a minute! Jehovahs Witnesses all meet for worship on Sunday! Gee, since "Sunday" is from pagan origin, that means that Jehovah's Witnesses are all pagan worshippers!!

  It's misleading to compare a wedding ring to the whole circus that is christmas, like comparing a skyscraper to a hut.

  How exactly is it "misleading"?

  Reniaa, your attempt at trying to justify the Organization's warped views on Christmas has been a complete failure. You use circular reasoning, you ignore posts to which you have no rebuttal and the answers you do give are all built on sand. If you thought you could come on here and actually try to convince any of us that you are right and everyone else is wrong, you were only deluding yourself. We aren't uneducated, bible-ignorant strangers whose door you might knock on Saturday mornings. We were all Witnesses at one point and we know all the tricks of the trade.
  
• 

  isaacaustin

  What about all the lies the WTS has told us for the last 140 years?? Oh I forgot....those weren't "lies", they were all just "present truths".

  Present truths, current truths...never lies, false prophecies, false teachings, errors, mistakes, dogma- those phrases are reserved for all others. The WT gets a free pass here.