by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
But Joseph
What I was showing is the oneness, as a husband and wife are one spiritual flesh. Although each have different roles and one is head over the other they share the same nature. My introduction of kids into this scenario was to expand more on role distinction yet sameness of nature. Perhaps I should have kept this to husband and wife, which the Bible calls one flesh. In the same way the Father and son are one, in a spiritual sense.
IssacAustin,
Doesn't matter. It is identity that is being discussed here not oneness. Wrong application to prove this point.
Joseph
Joseph,
I need to correct you and your understanding of the term "form of God", that you believe merely means Christ was like God in that he was in an invisible or angelic "form". But in its context, phillipians 2 is clearly stating something more than that is meant by the word "form".
The Apostle Paul gives the interpretation himself of verse 6 right at the end of the verse He states about Christ, "who being in very nature (or form) God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
So Paul himself is saying being "in the form of God" literally means Christ had "equality with God". Some Bible translations interpret this texts as "being in nature God" instead of being in "form of God". But really either can work if you understand what the verse is saying.
The New World Translation horribly butchers this verse to try to hide Christ's divinity. Here is the entire verse in the NIV. Remember, it does not matter if it says "form" or "nature" because Paul states being in form of God means Christ was equal with God.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
The literal understanding of this biblical text is this; Althought Christ in form or nature was equal to God, he did not consider this equality something to be grasped, or forcefully held onto. But he made himself nothing, trading his equal nature with God the father, and took on a new nature, one of a servant being made in human likeness. Thus he humbled himself even to death on the cross for us.
Peace, Lilly
I like the explaination of the "Triple Points of Water" where water can be a liquid, solid and gas at the same time. One form ... three elements.
I need to correct you and your understanding of the term "form of God", that you believe merely means Christ was like God in that he was in an invisible or angelic "form". But in its context, phillipians 2 is clearly stating something more than that is meant by the word "form". So Paul himself is saying being "in the form of God" literally means Christ had "equality with God".
Lovelylil,
In context Paul is saying that Christ and God are separate and distinct Beings. Some similarities yes but this does not mean that other Son's of God not discussed did not have similar similarities. There was even one such Being that wanted to steal such equality not mentioned here. The verse is teaching attitude as I brought out, an attitude that we should also understand and should share as separate Beings. Nothing in the verses teach equal identity of Being and I am not the one that needed such correction.
Joseph
where water can be a liquid, solid and gas at the same time.
Sacolton,
No it cannot. In the same general location perhaps but not at the same time.
Joseph
Because of time I won’t be able to read all the responses but I did skim over and saw great scripture supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. I will try to read the whole thread later in the week. Hopefully I didn't repeat too many things that others already covered.
I believe in the divinity of Jesus. Jesus/the Word is God the Son, He is not God the Father. They are distinct and equal entities. Jesus did not pray to himself. He prayed to His Father. If one understands who Jesus truly is, one realizes the sacrifice he made for us.
Renaia if you are reading the bible, not just the NWT, and not just their magazines, I believe, you would eventually see it for yourself. I think it may be fear that is holding you back. Don't take our word for it. Pray to God for guidance and protection. He isn’t going to steer you wrong. I have posted a few scriptures. There are so many more.
I feel that as a Christian I must proclaim the message but it’s really not up to me to convince anyone of truth. The Holy Spirit will convict a person if he truly believes and he asks for the truth.
SOME QUESTIONS FOR YOU, RENAIA
If God is all about relationships wouldn’t He, before creation of man, not have had a relationship with someone?
If God is Love, how was He able to share that love if He was all by Himself before He created Jesus? He was in love with Himself?
Why would an Almighty God create only one angel and then have the angel create everything else?
If Jesus is begotten by God, how can that be if Jesus is an angel? God can only beget God. He can’t beget an angel because God isn’t an angel.
Who is the Alpha & the Omega, the beginning and the end, the First and the Last?
Who is coming in Revelations?
CREATOR
Isaiah 44:24 I am the Lord, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, Isaiah 45:12 It is I who made the earth and created mankind upon it, My own hands stretched out the heavens; and Isaiah 48:12: My own hand laid the foundations of the earth.
Romans 11:35 & 36. Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.
Col 1:15-17 NIV He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
FIRSTBORN
Jesus is the firstborn over all creation, not the firstborn in creation. Col 1:17 He is before all things and in him all things hold together.
The firstborn son of the patriarchal age was the heir to the majority or all of his father's property. Deut. 21:17
David, although lastborn of Jesse, received a birthright as a gift from God who says in Psalm 89:27, "I also shall make him my firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth." The firstborn signified a ruler as well as heir and in this case David's inheritance prefigured the greater inheritance of Jesus, son of David.
By calling the Son of God the "Firstborn over all creation," Paul acknowledged Jesus as heir and ruler of the world from the beginning. Ruler of all things, not all Eden, nor all Israel, nor even all the world, but ALL things–– Col 1:16"because in him all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities––all things have been created through him and for him".
CAN I ASK YOU RENAIA WHY THERE IS A DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE NWT AND THE JW's KINGDOM INTERLINEAR AT COL 1:15-17?
Col 1:15-17 (NWT) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all (other) things were created in the heavens and upon the earth; the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him, and for him. Also, he is before all (other) things and by means of him all (other) things were made to exist.
Kingdom InterlinearCol 1:15-17 who is image of the God the invisible, firstborn of all creation, because in him it was created the all (things) in the heavens and upon earth, the (things) visible and the (things) invisible, whether thrones or lordships or governments or authorities; the all (things) through him and into him it has been created; and he is before all (things) and the all (things) in him it has stood together.JESUS EMPTIED OR LOWERED HIMSELF
Phil 2:6-8 NIV Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death – even death on a cross!
Phil 2:6-8 KJV Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
WHO IS THIS JESUS?
Mark 4:39-41 He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm. He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?" They were terrified and asked each other, "Who is this? Even the wind and the waves obey him!"
Psalm 93:4 Mightier than the thunder of the great waters, mightier than the breakers of the sea— the LORD on high is mighty.
IN ISAIAH WHO DID HE SEE WITH HIS EYES?
Isaiah 6:5 Woe to me! I cried. I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty. (who is spoken of here?)
John 12:37-41 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them." Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him. (who is spoken of here?)
Joseph,
You are correct! Paul is stating that God and Jesus are two seperate beings. I agree with you there and I believe we are all in agreement on this point on this thread.
However,
Paul is also stating that Jesus being "in the form of God" meant he had "equality with God" - phillipians 2:6
This is the fact that keeps escaping you. The point of Phillipians 2 is that Paul says Jesus did no try to hold onto his equality with God but gave it up to take on a lower form or nature and humble himself to death on the cross for us.
Jesus is unique in this way. As the only begotten Son of God, he was equal in nature to God and thus he was not like the Angels of God. He was and is superior to all, except God the father.
Here is verse 6 in its entirety again. Please meditate on this;
6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped
You can substitue "form" for "nature" and it does not change the fact that paul is also stating Christ had "equality with God".
I would suggest going to www.biblegateway.com and looking this verse up in many different translations. Like I said the NWT is a bad translation of this verse. It makes no sense at all in that bible. Also on biblegateway, you can look up commentaries on different bible books, perhaps there is one that addresses this verse by Paul in Phillipians that can explain it better than I am.
Lilly
Paul is also stating that Jesus being "in the form of God" meant he had "equality with God" - phillipians 2:6
This is the fact that keeps escaping you. The point of Phillipians 2 is that Paul says Jesus did no try to hold onto his equality with God but gave it up to take on a lower form or nature and humble himself to death on the cross for us.
Lovelylil,
Now you are discussing the difference between human and non-human nature which was also a consideration in the texts. But as two separate Beings we did not have two Beings or Persons that equaled one God. One such Being took orders from the other one and was not equal in every sense of the word nor did they have to be of equal size. And as stated, they were not alone but there were others. From all such others, only this one was chosen for the task of creating and redeeming mankind. Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And this other one had a name or title. He was also called the WORD. Not the Son but the Word. This Word did not become the only begotten Son of God until He became flesh.
Joseph
Joseph,
The Apostle Paul said what he said, you cannot change it because it does not fit into your theology. He said Jesus was in the nature God, but did not try to hold onto his equality with God. He is stating Jesus was (and in fact still is) equal in nature to God.
Do you not understand the difference between position of authority and nature?
If not, I can't explain it any clearer, nor can anyone else here who have attempted to do so. Jesus being equal to God is just not a belief you share and you will not see it no matter how many biblical texts say otherwise.
So for now, I think I have to put this to rest. We will just have to disagree on this point.
Perhaps this discussion has helped someone else on this thread.
Peace in Christ, Lilly
