jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

sacolton

God	Jesus
God never changes. Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.	Jesus never changes. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
God is the only Saviour. "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Isaiah 43:11 To the only wise God our Saviour... Jude 1:12 God our Saviour. Titus 2:10 ...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour. I Timothy 4:10 God my Saviour. Luke 1:47	Jesus is the only Saviour. ...the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1 John 4:14 ...our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 3:18 ...God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. II Peter 1:1 ...the Christ, the Saviour of the world. John 4:42 ...the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Titus 1:4 a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. Luke 2:11 Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. --Acts 4:12 ...salvation... is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. --2 Timothy 2:10 ...captain of their salvation [Jesus] perfect through sufferings. -- Heb 2:10 [Jesus]...author of eternal salvation... -- Heb 5:9
God	Jesus
God created the universe and earth by Himself. I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1	Jesus Christ created the universe and the earth. [U]nto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10 [B]y him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him. Colossians 1:16 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:3
God	Jesus
God is the Word. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1	Jesus is the Word. ...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14
God	Jesus
God is the first and the last. I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4	Jesus is the first and the last. Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

God	Jesus
God forgives sins. [T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3 "[W]ho can forgive sins but God only?" Mark 2:7	Jesus forgives sins. Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5
God	Jesus
God is our redeemer. [T]hou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer.. Isaiah 63:16	Jesus redeemed us. [T]the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ...gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity.. Titus 2:13-14
God	Jesus
God is one. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD. Deuteronomy 6:4	Jesus and God are one. I and my Father are one. John 10:30 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...All things were made by him...He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not...And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us John 1:1, 3, 10, 14 Jesus saith...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? John 14:9 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7
God has a Son. [T]he LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psalms 2:7	Jesus is God's Son. ... [Jesus] said also that God was his Father... John 5:18

God	Jesus
God is the Holy One Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel. Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Messianic Psalm)	Jesus is the Holy One. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 13:34-35 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
God	Jesus
Only God is worshipped. ... Then saith Jesus unto him... Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. Matthew 4:10	Jesus is worshipped. While [Jesus] spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him... Matthew 9:18 And again, when [God] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Hebrews 1:6 And Thomas answered and said unto [Jesus], My Lord and my God. John 20:28
God	Jesus
God is Messiah. ...unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder...and his name shall be called... The mighty God, The everlasting Father... Isaiah 9:6	Jesus is Messiah. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. John 4:25-26
God	Jesus
God is from everlasting. The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting. Psalms 93:1-2	Messiah Yeshua (Jesus) is from everlasting. But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah...out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Micah 5:2

God	Jesus
Only God is glorified. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another... Isaiah 42:8	God glorified Jesus. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5 [A]ll men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. John 5:23 But unto the Son he [God] saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hebrews 1:8
God	Jesus
God is 'I am'. And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exodus 3:14	Jesus is 'I am'. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. John 8:58
God heals all diseases. Bless the LORD...who healeth all thy diseases. Psalms 103:2	Jesus heals all diseases. [Jesus] healed all that were sick. Matthew 8:16
God is the Judge of the whole earth. O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself. Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a reward to the proud. Psalms 94:1-2 [Abraham to God]...Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Genesis 18:25	Jesus is the Judge of the whole earth. [T]he Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: John 5:22
God has life in Himself. [T]he Father hath life in himself; John 5:26	Jesus has life in Himself. so hath [God] given to the Son to have life in himself; In [Jesus] was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:4
God raises the dead. [T]he Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; John 5:21	Jesus raises the dead. [T]he Son quickeneth whom he will. John 5:21

isaacaustin

Sacolton,
For the same reason that it was also written in parables. Jesus explained it like this: Lu 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. This also prevented tampering with the message to the point where it could no longer be recovered by the readers.
Joseph
Revelation ch 19 shows that the archangel was not Jesus. It mentions Jesus descending and an angel also coming with a loud shout....
isaacaustin

1st Thess 4: 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True,
This is Jesus descending...what about 'with the voice of an archangel? keep reading...
and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
ahh, the loud command and the voice of the archangel- which is simply a captain angel...
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
reniaa

I have found this quite interesting reading and have my own reason for believing Jesus is God.

One day a person comes up to you and says here read this book and decide what God you want.
The book is divided into 2 parts so you start reading the first part it starts of really nice telling us how the world was created. You start thinking what a nice person this God is (we find out later in the second part of the book who he really is) You carry on reading and after a while you start to read about this God killing everyone apart from 8 people and all the animals. So he almost starts again but people won’t worship him so he has them killed. Just because he can. You read that millions were killed. This God by the way is called Jehovah. This God wants and demands worship. As people had free will they wanted to do as they wished and not follow laws set by this God.

Then we go onto the second part of the book and the God we find here is different from the other God. This God only has 2 commandments and they are about love he tells us to forgive people and not to judge them. He tells us to forgive them over and over again. He wants us to love one another. The name of this God is Jesus and it was through him all things were made. This God did lots of wonderful things because of love. This God then died for us not just for me but for everyone of us. So our sins could be forgiven.

Now I believe that the God in the first part of the book did not really understand us humans so he had to empty himself of everything apart from Love and come down to live as one of us. Then he could see we needed guidance, love and understanding. Not to be bullied into worshiping him.

If you had to choose which God was the best who would you chose

As a Christian I know Jesus is my saviour amyfa
Amyfa It's interesting to see how just on this one forum we have so many different ways of viewing God,
From extreme trinitarians to more looser trinity interpretations, to joseph and myself that maybe will have different viewpoints on other subjects but in this case we both only believe in One God and that Jesus is his son.
Lovelylil
I couldn't do a better job than joseph in answering your queries he put clearly what I thought, that you can't say something is separate but then make it one for convenience, for me trinity is trying to have the best of both worlds trying to fit two opposites together, saying God can function as 3 separate entites even having conversations with each other then saying they are One being. For me there just isn't enough proof texts in the bible to support this viewpoint, what I get from the bible is jesus as God son is extremely alike with his Father but not actually God himself.
isaacaustin

but in this case we both only believe in One God and that Jesus is his son.
My reply: Ok, only one God. If there is only one God there is only one Lord. Is the Father called Lord? Is the Son called Lord?
OUTLAW

..........................OUTLAW
Matt_fs

Reniaa,
You never answered my question, who ressurected Jesus Christ from the dead? If you say Jehovah, can you provide the scripture for it?
Cheers
Slappy

Stephen knew they were both there when he called out to them. He wanted Jesus to receive his Spirit as he knew the God he appealed to had Jesus alongside Him also listening to this request.
The only way to the Father is through the Son. This is one of the main themes of the NT. Furthermore, Hebrews spends more than a little time explaining that Jesus Christ is our High Priest, our Intercessor, and that without Him, there is no access to the Father. The only way to God is through God, for He is all and in all (Col. 3:11).
We know that under the law, men were ordained as priests and carried out the intercessory work with the sacrifices. However, this was an imperfect system because man could never hope to hold to the law. As such, God was made flesh (1 Tim. 3:16; John 1:1, 14) and dwealt among us in order to be that living sacrifice to once and for all atone for our unrighteousnesses (Heb. 10:12).
As such, there is no need for human priests and the like to come before God. In fact, doing so is now hated by God (Rev. 2:6, 15). Again, the sacrifices of men were imperfect (Heb. 10:6). As such, He has consecrated for us a new and living way (Heb. 10:20) whereby we can forever be made perfect (Heb. 10:14).
This new way is just that, a new way. It is different from the old way in that the sacrifice was not a 'creature' (creation of God) but that it was God Himself, manifest in the flesh. This was the ultimate sacrifice, nothing greater could be given up in an attempt to achieve that perfection necessary to dwell with Him. That is why any attempt to return to the old way, as the Nicolaitans did (Rev. 2:6, 15), is hated by God.
Furthermore God hates human sacrifice. God is the same, He is unchanging (Heb. 1:10-12; 13:8). Why would the 'man' Jesus be the exception? He wasn't! That's because it wasn't 'man' that was the sacrifice. It was God.
God is the only perfect being. The only way we could be made perfect was through Him who was already perfect. Anything less will not suffice. This is why Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life (John 14:6).
Jesus was not just a man with God's 'Word' on Him, He was the fullness of God (Col. 2:9-10). Neither was He an archangel. Look at Matthew 4:6
And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
An archangel is like a general. It is head over and commands other angels. Angels are not charged to keep watch and protect an archangel. In fact, as we read in Daniel 10, it was the archangel Michael who came to the rescue of that angel who was to explain to Daniel his vision, not the other way around.
Furthermore, Jesus rebuked Satan twice that we are aware of. Once when he was tempted (Matt. 4, Luke 4) and once when talking to Peter (Matt. 16:23). Yet we read in Jude of Michael who dared not bring an accusation against Satan but said 'The lord rebuke you'...which, by the way, is exactly what Jesus did. Why didn't Michael rebuke Satan with his own authority? Because Satan, in status, was above Michael. Yet Jesus had no qualms about telling Satan to 'get behind Him' because His status was above that of Satan and Satan's proper place was behind Jesus.
slappy
Witness 007

There is no way Jesus thought he was God otherwise he would have clearly said so many times not "hinted" vaguely or hidden the fact as Trinitarians claim. Most scholars agree this slowly developed over three centries and if you read alot of non-biblical christian writtings you can see that is true....you don't have to be a Witness to see this.
Slappy

There is no way Jesus thought he was God otherwise he would have clearly said so many times not "hinted" vaguely or hidden the fact as Trinitarians claim. Most scholars agree this slowly developed over three centries and if you read alot of non-biblical christian writtings you can see that is true....you don't have to be a Witness to see this.
No, but you do have to be a witness to apply flawed logic in an attempt to prove something that isn't there.
Also, that same argument can apply the other way also...
If Jesus wasn't God, why didn't He specifically state so? This is actually the topic that Reniaa tried proving.
While Jesus doesn't say the exact phrase "I AM GOD", neither does He say "I am not God". This is the mystery as stated in 1 Tim. 3:16. Even if He was as humble as Reniaa says He is (He is humble by the way, she just misapplies the term in order to prove her point), He still would not claim to NOT be God. For to make such a claim would be lying, 'humility' be damned. Furthermore, as 2 Tim. 2:13 states, He cannot deny Himself.
Joseph brought up the point that Jesus spoke in parables to hide things from those that didn't care enough to search His Word to find the answer (Luke 8:10). This I also believe. God wants those that truly want to know Him, and those that want to know God will read His Word to know more of Him.
However, there is a much rather larger amount of scripture to support the idea that Jesus = God (which Sacolton conveniently provided) than there is to disprove such idea. Don't use flawed human logic to support an assertion. Look to the Bible and all will be made clear (Matthew 7:7-8).
slappy

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

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