jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa 421 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jaguarbass

  Check out a Book called the "Gods of Eden" by William Bramley.

  It might put things into perspective for you.
• 

  StAnn

  Reniaa said:

  "hi isaacaustin you replied this to the hebrews scripture

  Made so much better- from the point of his having emptied himself to the point of his re-glorification. Not rocket science there Reniaa

  'but mythe WTS's point still stands it was God that Made Jesus so acting as God to his subordinate.

  Where did Jesus rebuke him Reniaa? That word is no where is this text. He simply asked a question as he always asked questions to put people into a position of having to think and commit. He emphasized God alone is good but in now way excluded himself from that class. He said nothing more than his question. If he made a comment stating that he himself is not good or that he himself is just a man then you would have a point. You are simply reading into Jesus words what you already believe.

  "its clear (clear to whom? mindless Dubs? typical WTS tactic) jesus is pointing out something he thinks the man has said wrong therefore rebuking by correcting but and

  "this is for others who have remarked on the 'Good' here jesus is not saying of himself that he isn't good just that the proper respect is to give that sort of praise to God, so while many in the bible are called Good only God is the originator of this Goodness, basically jesus is just being his usual modest self and assigning what is properly given to his father.

  Reniaa, what a cute little distortion. Please give us your sources as to where you came to that conclusion, including page numbers and footnotes, please.

  "I know many will want to side with isaac in this interpretation but thats leaves you with a choice...choose a arrogant jesus that in the middle of a random conversation wants to make sure someone knows he is God or a modest jesus who again as in all other places assigns all things to his father?

  Well, now, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black! Hmm, Jesus is actually doing what he is meant to do, draw mankind into a fuller understanding of the nature of God, and an arrogant little JW attacks him for it because it doesn't fit into WTS theology numerology!

  You said: you talk on my two witness text saying they are equal but isn't that contradictory after just looking at a scripture were jesus says "the father is greater than I"

  No, it is not contradictory. I just showed you from Heb discussed above that 'greater' refers to position whereas 'better' refers to nature. George Bush is greater than you and I due to his position. he certainly is not better- as we are of the same nature.

  "Well I've looked up all the occurances of greater in the bible (where, on the WT CD-rom?) and i'm sorry but your interpretation is too narrow and the context would lend itself to the greater meaning simply that God is greater,

  Obviously from this thread, this is the first time Reniaa has tried to read anything in context, LOL! And she still missed it.

  "and a verseithe WTS uses to show this misinterpretation is a famous one for trinitarians because it encompasses another argument that comes up

  29

  "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all [d] ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

  Reniaa, let's look at this scripture in John 10:24-33:

  24

  So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long are you going to keep us in suspense? 11 If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly."

  25

  Jesus answered them, "I told you 12 and you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify to me.

  26

  But you do not believe, because you are not among my sheep.

  27

  My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

  28

  I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand.

  29

  My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 13 and no one can take them out of the Father's hand.

  30

  14 The Father and I are one."

  31

  The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.

  32

  Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?"

  33

  The Jews answered him, "We are not stoning you for a good work but for blasphemy. You, a man, are making yourself God."

  http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john10.htm

  I find this interesting because Jesus said, essentially, I've told you the truth over and over but you won't believe me because you're not my sheep! Boy, couldn't that statement apply to the Dubs!

  Also, it seems in verse 33 that the Jews to whom Jesus was speaking were very clear that Jesus was claiming to be God in verse 30. If he wasn't claiming to be God, why didn't he just correct them and say, "No, you misunderstand me." He didn't correct them because they didn't misunderstand him.

  "so here in saying the father is greater than all it clearly shows (more WTS-ese, of course) greater isn't a position but a declaration of god he is greater than all including jesus. but then in the same scriptures we have the oft taken out of context(spoken as only a Dub can speak, the princes of taking things out of context) 'I and my father are one' given the context were jesus has just said the father is greater than all why would he say they are one as in equal as some would believe? if you look at the full purpose it clearly shows oneness in purpose not position. and to back this up look at other times this oneness is used....

  but my point still stands it was God that Made Jesus so acting as God to his subordinate.

  No, her point doesn't stand, but she is obviously so brainwashed that she can't see it!

  Anyway, I could go on and on but I'm not going to bore you. But to those who criticized me for not responding to her line for line, I can keep on going, if you feel it is necessary. Not that she'll listen.

  StAnn
• 

  reniaa

  hi lovedubs

  I have never accepted the Trinity concept...not even as a Methodist. Why isnt it good enough that Jesus is GODS SON?? I think I could settle for that position.

  I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with Gods son and jesus didn't seem to mind either he called himself it enough :)

  hi lovelylil

  She simply cannot grasp the simple truth that the father and the son together make up the one God of the Bible.

  there you are actually going wrong because if you truly believed trinity you wouldn't have missed out the holy spirit but you did without thinking simply because we don't discuss the spirit because it's not there as part of a triune, there is no triune! the concept of trinity is a like trying to fit all the jigsaw pieces into the wrong places, trinity says all 3 parts are equal then it talks of one having greater position and giving authority but then it gives greater worship to the lesser position one, can't you see that it isn't even what it says of itself?

  hi pubsinger

  i'm still having difficulty accessing your page :(

  hi isaac again

  Exactly...son indicates equal nature. To use JW reasoning...a dog can not give birth to a cat...or a human to another species. Can a human pro-create deity?

  So son reflects an identity.

  Again like image a reflection is not the original, jesus is God's son his firstborn so is like God in ways we cannot even imagine but he still isn't God.

  Jesus has been given authority by God so he can do these things, there are examples were authority has been given to lesser degrees to others and they have done things attributed to God like judging....rev 20: 4

  4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.

  hi again lovelylil

  Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, something even most Jews stumbled on.

  You can't say this and be agreement with a trinity whose only works if jesus gave up his godness to become man on earth can't you see the contradiction? you said "exact representation" before that I refer you to my above post about image and reflection jesus is still not God by these words just very like him, like you would expect of the Son. you quote heb 1:3

  Hebrews 1:3
  The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

  here is Jesus apparently returned to heaven and newly God and yet he is still on the righthand and subserviant to God?

  hi isaac

  you talk of sustaining but Jesus was given authority by God to do things including sustain and having things created THROUGH him if jesus is the originator why say through him?

  hi snowbird

  your revelation point doesn't allow that we can be subordinate to jesus recognising his glory and power and god given authority but God is higher, your scripture shows the lamb approaching the throne but not on it!.

  hi josephmalik

  I like your point others should read it especially on God, I had to reread it a few times though!, and you saw what I didn't on why lovelylil said equal when it isn't there, hmmm this thread has really maybe me dig down deep and think on things.

  hi slappy

  lovely scriptures and I agree we should look to Jesus, this whole thread is only to show I think Jesus didn't want us to think of him as God.

  hi deputy dog

  Do you think Satan had the power to fullfil these offers?

  I answered the Good point in my previous post, All I know on this is jesus answered Satan as if Satan could offer these things!

  This is not a problem. You have made a strawman here. Jesus says "the Father is greater" not God

  No because the Father is referenced to God, the bible is very explicit on that, thats why those that worship Jesus as God, still have to deal with 'God the Father' although he is pushed into the OT away from hearts and minds.

  and your trinity strawman is only oner if you accept any of the teaching of trinity which I don't.

  Lets look at this in context.

  John 10:25

  Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

  Can a human give eternal life to another? Can you do this reniaa?

  29

  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30"I and the Father are one."

  Funny how you leave verse 30 out.

  31

  The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

  The Jews clearly understood what was happenning. Jesus was doing things that only God could do. Like giving people eternal life, among other things.

  34

  Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?

  37"If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;

  It doesn't get much clearer than this

  38

  but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."

  I see no denial.

  Some of these i answered already but jesus can give eternal life because God gave him the authority. you answer yourself in the scriptures above jesus only says he is the 'Son of god' and he does the works of his father.

  An I refer you to a scripture were jesus talks us of us all being in each other with him and God. I refer you to john 17: 21-22

  I did not lie I only see the scriptures as I do, which is just different to you. We each in the end really have to decide for ourselves on this.

  Hi sacolton

  So even the demons knew jesus was the son of God! well erm they didn't call him God?

  hi josephMalik

  I think you answered most points better than myself feel free to correct me if my ideas have got mixed up there were a lot of comments to sift through :)
• 

  reniaa

  hi stAnn you didn't comment on the one thing I felt was important to say topeople who see Jesus as God but don't read his words of humility and love to his Father....

  You say I am condemned for not worshiping jesus as God! I say from all that I read of jesus's great love for his father, just look at his actions at the moneylenders tables in the temple? Maybe people that by worshiping the son have lost their love for Jehovah and jesus loving his father as he does is seeing you do this, will not take this easily or happily.

  12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
  

  13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

  reniaa
• 

  Slappy

  You can't say this and be agreement with a trinity whose only works if jesus gave up his godness to become man on earth can't you see the contradiction? you said "exact representation" before that I refer you to my above post about image and reflection jesus is still not God by these words just very like him, like you would expect of the Son. you quote heb 1:3

  Hebrews 1:3
  The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

  here is Jesus apparently returned to heaven and newly God and yet he is still on the righthand and subserviant to God?

  The term 'exact representation' is 'express image' in the KJV. Having looked up the phrase in Strong's, I offer the following:

  5481?a?a?t?? [ charakter / khar·ak· tare /] n m . From the same as 5482 ; TDNT 9:418 ; TDNTA 1308 ; GK 5917 ; AV translates as “express image” once. 1 the instrument used for engraving or carving. 2 the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it. 2a a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression. 2b the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile. n n : noun or neuter m m : masculine TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G5481

  Furthermore, I refer you to Genesis 1:26 & 27...

  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

  The term 'image' as it is used here (notice that it is without the term 'express') is defined as follows:

  6754?????, ????? [ tselem / tseh ·lem /] n m . From an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT 1923a ; GK 7512 and 7513 ; 17 occurrences; AV translates as “image” 16 times, and “vain shew” once. 1 image. 1a images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods). 1b image, likeness (of resemblance). 1c mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.). n n : noun m m : masculine TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. H6754

  Can that be any clearer??!!
• 

  ninja

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
• 

  myelaine

  dear reniaa... "(why would God mediate himself or even need a mediator if he was Jesus?) "... a mediator is not neutral in the sense that he just listens to both sides...a mediator acts or speaks on behalf of both sides...so God the Father sent God the Son to act and speak on His behalf in the same way that Jesus the Man acted and spoke for men. that is the "theology" behind galatians 3:20... (God - God/Man - men)...otherwise...we have the this formula... (God - a god/man - men)...in order to satisfy the perfect justice of God an angel wouldn't do...(angels were created with the capacity to sin)angels are a "kind"...there are different "ranks" of angels but not different "kinds" ...likewise there are not different "kinds" of God there is one God. love michelle
• 

  JosephMalik

  would not the Epistles of John or the Gospel of John be more suited to such?

  Slappy,

  Of course there are many sources and I did not depend on this one. It was for Lovelylil that I stayed with this text. Not everyone in Phlippi were Jews who knew there was only one God (not a trinity that made up God) or understood the words used like the Jews did. Lovelylil some of you must have noticed did not understand it like Trinitarians do so she was more like the Gentiles among them that Paul also tried to address. After all I wrote Beyond Trinitarianism of over 60 pages and covered the subject far more througoughly in it. No one knows the nature or form of God and cannot define it in words or by artwork. They cannot even do this for the angels with similar nature or form. That is why so many different applications of words have made that only intended to simplify what is not comprehend able to us yet. That is why such words can be used of man and yet never reveal what the image of God really is. Is God a human? No! Still such words can be applied to us both. They never were intended to be used as detail. We should not make so much of them as they were only intended to briefly describe what happened and why. What was not said is very important and I brought this out to Lovelylil. Jews did not have to be convinced but the Gentiles did. Just a simple exercise in reasonable thinking is all Paul was doing there.

  Joseph
• 

  lovelylil

  Reniaa,

  There are different views on the Trinity. But right now we are discussing the divinity of Christ, not the Holy Spirit.

  You started this thread by saying Jesus denies being God, but have not showed any scripture where Jesus said he is not God. You have only proven Jesus is not God the father, which we all agree with you on this point, but it still stands scripturally that he is God the son, totally equal in nature to the father.

  No matter how many times you state otherwise, it will not make it true. The scriptures stand as the authority whether you believe what it says or not.

  You have been given many texts that show Both the Apostles Paul and John declared Jesus' divinity and equality with God the father. In fact, the Jews stumbled on this truth and tried to stone Christ for making himself equal to God.

  Unfortunately the WT has changed all the scriptures that prove Christ's divinity in the NWT and the WT society has programmed you not to believe it so you will also continue to stumble on this truth, just like the Jews did.

  As for me, I am glad to at least of had the opportunity to proclaim Christ's divinity on this thread so that others who want to know the truth can plainly see it.

  Peace, Lilly
• 

  Slappy

  No one knows the nature or form of God and cannot define it in words or by artwork. They cannot even do this for the angels with similar nature or form. That is why so many different applications of words have made that only intended to simplify what is not comprehend able to us yet.

  Aye, were it that we could all recognize that. Isn't it incredible how two little words "I AM" can flabbergast (lol, haven't used that word in a while) even the most poetic of us?!

  And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. John 21:25