WANTED ! JW Apologist

by wobble 389 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Earnest

  wobble,

  Your contrite apology is accepted in the spirit in which it is offered. In my first response on this thread I basically argued that it was not necessary to accept that the WTS is appointed by God in order to hold that their beliefs as to who God is and his purpose for the earth are more in harmony with scripture than those of other churches. I specifically said :

  If you do not accept that scripture teaches they were appointed by Jesus in 1919 (and I, for one, do not) then don't believe it.

  so I'm not going to argue what I do not believe. I will go further and say that while I am in "good-standing" in the sense that I am not DF'd or DA'd I have not been active in the sense of preaching as a JW after reading CoC when it was first published and being convinced that there was no scriptural or circumstantial case for the claim of appointment in 1919.

  I actually have no quarrel with you or Betsy (apart from his criticism of spelling when he himself makes mistakes) but rather with those who mock, taunt and belittle Reniaa simply because she openly defends what she believes. If appointment in 1919 is not true (which is what you and I both hold) then it should not need sarcasm etc in order to show this.

  I would like to add a further thought which I discussed with AlanF many moons ago, and that is that the claim for appointment by God in 1919 is what primarily distinguishes JWs from other Christian groups. I disagreed with Alan at the time but the repeated study of the 'Revelation Climax' book at book studies makes me less sure that he is wrong.
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  Earnest

  Betsy...ha ha ha ha...Freudian slip...sorry Besty
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  reniaa

  hi tenyearsafter

  The problem I have, and I may not have been clear, is that if Jehovah chose the FDS in 1919 (as claimed by the WTBTS), why did those chosen people continue in "false worship"? The Bible Students still used the cross, celebrated holidays, worshipped Jesus, accepted military service and believed in aspects of Pyramidology and Astrology at the very time they were "chosen". They did not abandon these practices until many years later...would it make sense that the religions of the earth were examined at that time and God would choose a people who engaged in the same practices as the ones God rejected.

  Reniaa...does the Watchtower logo constitute a graven image like a cross? It is looked to as a symbol of the Organization. If it doesn't have any special meaning, why does it appear on the buildings, publications, etc.? Reniaa, since it seems to be a detestable practice to you, why was it ok for the FDS to use the cross at the time they were appointed?

  I await your response...

  I apologise for missing your question to be honest I have answered the 1919 in regards to myself already, I regard it as possibly the mistake of a new faith tearing itself away from a well established set of lies.

  You and others seem to think this would happen ovenight and not be an ongoing process but nothing I've read biblically leads me down this route of thinking, all scriptures suggest we will need constant refining until Jesus comes again, those that listen to the guidance of holy spirit will show the fruitage of this by having a message that in line with what the bible says and those that follow the lie/delusion that will cloud the minds of the majority will remain blind to the 'truth' but a few 'wheat' from when jesus came to the time of the end will show the fruitage of listening to holy spirit and keep the original massage alive amidst the lie.

  I think Jw's atm have the nearest expression of what Jesus taught the appostles in doctrine, christaldelphians like christendom mess with the major characters, they say Jesus only became so at his birth to mary they deny his life before then as the word, they also deny Satan is a real being, to them he is just imperfection in all men, they also have kept many jewish practises inc tithing.

  Bible students that broke away from rutherford and kept to russell's teachings and have some doctrines I agree with but they have remained static and unchanging since then and still believe in pyramidology etc they seem unable to go beyond russels teaching, the same as trinitarian christians seem unable to let go of trinity etc.

  So if you are all waiting for some messianic religion to come forth in perfection and teach something you can all be part of, well we had this with Jesus and he left the message with us until he comes again, what we do with it is our choice.

  lets compare the cross and the watchtower logo.

  cross - on every church and usually on every altar.

  Watchtower - only on one monthly magazine and now any remaining wt signs on outside walls(as part of the Jw name) are being removed from the few KH that may have had it on (something the german ones seem to have done occasionally).

  Cross - incense is burned to it on the altars it stands on.

  watchtower - never has had incense burned to it.

  Cross - people kneel in front of it, kiss it, wear it around their necks, people pray in front of it, bowing to it, imbuing it with supernatural powers gleaned from the God they think it represents, they sing praises to it,

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skxiHGj6lIU&feature=related

  watchtower - has never had any praises sung to it or any of the above, although some people have though to get people to buy watchtower ties and pins but they have been warned not to by gb so as not to make an image of the wt.

  if you want to pretend the watchtower is a idol when we barely give it any notice except as a magazine that is a helpful tool from our leaders like the letters the annointed from first century wrote, then people really must be suffering from cognitive dissonance in view to cross worship.

  To be honest It could be said the Cross as an idol is in a league of it's own! no other idol on this planet has the same level of veneration the cross has, I think christians visiting in Jerusalem even carry crosses on a walk that imitates what Jesus did as a literal reinactment, so they say they have carried their cross, of course it is lighter, smaller and no flagelation, and they don't get killed at the end of it but they really think this is what Jesus meant by 'carrying your cross/stauros.'

  since christianity made it a punishment by death to teach anything other than their trinity doctrine among other things and you were marked as an heretic. Then there is no chance anyone would start out as anything other than a false cross worshiper but if they allowed the holy spirit to work on them, and as I said I don't know if it was 1919 but it certainly started around that time they would start to clear away the false teachings over time and constantly needing to be refined until Jesus comes.
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  isaacaustin

  Your comments insinuating the worship and attributing of supernatural powers to the cross are comepleely untrue and ridiculous. Again, it is used as a reminder- not an idol. But, even if we were to assume it is a mark of false relgion your own reaosning explodes. You try to minmize the WT use of it while accentuate (in an untrue way) others use of it. If it is wrong it is wrong...regardless of the degree.
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  Mary

  Reniaa said: I accept the dates because whether right or wrong the holy spirit must have been acting on or around that time for them to have been gifted with so many bible truths.

  You've got to be shitting me. "Gifted with so many bible truths"?? Lets take a look at what some of their "bible truths" were at this time:

  Studies in Sciptures - Thy Kingdom Come - 1915 p44
  Having thus furnished grounds for establishing the identity of this character (Napoleon), whose deeds mark the beginning of the 'Time of the End,' the prophecy proceeds to show which particular event of that time is to be understood as definitely marking the exact date of the beginning of the 'Time of the End.' This event is shown to be Napoleon's invasion of Egypt, which covered a period of a year and nearly five months. He sailed May, 1798 and, returning, landed in France Oct. 9, 1799. This campaign is graphically described in a few words in verses 40-44. Verse 40: 'And at the (fixed) Time of the End shall the king of the South (Egypt) fight against him, and the king of the North (England) shall come against him like a tempest, with chariots and with horsemen (the Egyptian Mamelukes, etc.) and with a great navy. (The English forces consisted of a navy under Admiral Nelson.) And he (Napoleon) shall enter into the countries, and shall destroy and pass through (victoriously).

  Thy Kingdom Come 1915, P38: From other scriptures we learn that it was a period of 1260 years which ended with A.D. 1799, a date prominently noted by Daniel and the Revelator as well as in history.

  The Battle of Armageddon, (SS-4), 1912 ed., p. 621: Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A. D. according to the testimony of the prophets, to those who have ears to hear it...

  The Finished Mystery (SS-7), 1917 ed., p. 485: Also, in the year 1918, when God destroys the churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of Pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the downfall of ‘Christianity.'

  The Watchtower Reprints, October 1, 1917, p.6149: The parallel, therefore, would establish definitely that the harvest would close forty years thereafter; to wit, in the spring of A.D. 1918. If this be true, and the evidence is very conclusive that it is true, then we have only a few months in which to labor before the great night settles down when no man can work.

  The Time Is at Hand, page ii, (forward) 1916: The Bible chronology herein presented shows that the six great 1000 year days beginning with Adam are ended, and that the great 7th Day, the 1000 years of Christ's Reign, began in 1873.

  The Golden Age 1919 November 26 p.153: Even years ago it was known by some people that the use of pacifiers by babies is one of the chief causes of diseased and enlarged tonsils and adenoid growths, which results from the suction.

  The Golden Age 1920 December 8 p.146: Milk is the greatest curative food known.

  The Watchtower, 1st December 1904 p364: Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."

  The Watchtower November 1 1920: Some one asked me the other day: Suppose you should be here in 1925 what would you do? I said, I believe I will be home in the Pleiades before then ..

  Watchtower 1922 June 15 p.187: In the passages of the Great Pyramid of Gizeh the agreement of one or two measurements with the present-truth chronology might seem accidental, but the correspondency of dozens of measurements proves that the same God designed both pyramid and plan...

  The Golden Age 1921 Oct 12 p.17: Vaccination never prevented anything and never will, and is the most barbarous practice... Use your rights as American citizens to forever abolish the devilish practice of vaccination.

  This is just the tip of the iceburg. There are countless other uh "truths" that the Craptower were trying to promote, none of which has ever come to pass. In addition, by the Society's own admission, they were at this time, guilty of "long association with christian apostasy. They had many practices, characteristics and beliefs similar to the weeklike sects of Christendom."(July 15, 1960 WT pp. 435-436)

  They also admit that they "sold themselves because of wrong practices and came into bondage to the world empire of false religion...an outstanding instance of this occurred during World War I of 1914-1918." (Nov 15 1980 WT p. 25-26)

  Sooo, at the same time that Jesus is supposedly inspecting these men and declaring them "faithful and discreet", they were, by their own admission, involved in 'apostasy....wrong practices' and compared themselves with 'apostate Israel'.

  Reniaa, your notions about the validity of the Organization's tripe are as nauseating as they are befuddled. The Society has a 100% tract record of false prophecies-----not one of them ever came true. You base your reasoning on the ridiculous assertion that the "truths" they promoted, such as the idea that there is no literal hell-fire, immortality of the soul, God's name and His purpose for mankind, somehow cancel out hundreds of other false teachings, of which, almost all of them are long dead and buried. The only reason the Society still continues to promote the bullshit ridiculous idea that they were "chosen" in 1918, is so that they can continue to exert absolute power over 6.5 million drones.

  Way to go Reniaa. As per usual, you insert both feet in your mouth without pausing.

  
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  poppers

  so they say they have carried their cross, of course it is lighter, smaller and no flagelation, and they don't get killed at the end of it but they really think this is what Jesus meant by 'carrying your cross/stauros.'

  Well, I don't think they believe that's what he meant, but thanks for giving me my biggest laugh of the day. This is the problem with religion in general, though. People do such outrageous things in interpreting whatever "holy book" it subscribes to, all convinced that their interpretation is somehow "guided", that their interpretation is the correct one and everyone else is wrong - delusion, all of it.

  The idea that "God" is "talking" to us mere mortals in the first place flies in the face of logic. When you start with a faulty premise then everything that arises out of it is imagination run amok, pure and simple, created by men. And to believe any of it is to elevate men to "God" (whatever that is. But it seems to me that "God" is unknowable, otherwise he/she/it wouldn't be God) - that is lunacy based on ignorance and faulty reasoning. Just look at what this does: on this site and in the world. People would rather do anything from name calling to killing than admit they don't really know "God", that all they really know are the ideas they have about him/her/it, ideas which spring from the mind's of men that get packaged into some "holy book" and then forced down other people's throats. Then they live their lives in a fantasy that only exists in their mind. Instead of living their lives in freedom they live their lives enslaved to their ideas, and just look at the mess that has created. This is what people have to wake up to.

  Sorry to side-track the thread. You can go back to your fantasy world now bash away at one another.
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  wobble

  Thanks poppers,

  many on here willagree with you,but what we would like is some proof for this from those who believe it:

  Examining the Scriptures Daily

  Yeartext of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 2009:
  “Bear thorough witness to the good news”—Acts 20:24.

  • Thursday, February 12, 2009 It is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the end be of those who are not obedient to the good news of God?—1 Pet. 4:17.
    
    The prophecy of Malachi foretold that Jehovah, “the true Lord,” accompanied by his “messenger of the covenant,” his newly enthroned Son, Christ Jesus, would come in judgment to inspect His “temple,” or spiritual house of worship. “The appointed time” for the ‘judgment of the house of God’ to begin evidently arrived in 1918. (Mal. 3:1) Those claiming to represent God and his true worship on earth were duly examined. The churches of Christendom, who for centuries had taught God-dishonoring doctrines and had been heavily involved in the massacre of World War I, were rejected. A faithful remnant of spirit-anointed Christians were tested, refined as with fire, and approved, becoming to Jehovah “people presenting a gift offering in righteousness.”—Mal. 3:3. w07 4/1 1:4
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  reniaa

  Hi isaac I'm replying to even though some of your past posts have been less than polite as possible-san would put it.

  this is my own speculation and thoughts isaac but how could the angels not harvest the wheat from the weeds? unless the wheat had no choice but to go along with the weeds, a mixtured of threat of death and with-holding and obscuring of the bible, would make it near impossible to get the correct message and only a few holy spirit guided would know it.

  God knew that in time the bible in it's original state would be accessed by all again so the true message would be available and people able and willing to follow it, and this time would be when the world had reach a point of unpresidented wickedness that he could no longer ignore in fact 'none would be saved' unless his chosen king his son Jesus stepped in.

  Those that recognised this message in God's word would go on to preach this message to the entire inhabited world and then 'the end would come' chosen by Jehovah only lol not eager men of which ...

  Mary I mention again we would have to condemn all faiths, for it's a practise in this case 'picking dates for christs return' which they did on a regular basis from Jesus's time onwards, this may yet be another past practise Jws need to drop and be refined on? who knows but I'm willing to wait on Jehovah in this since they preach what I consider to be truest bible doctrine in comparison to the 34,000 other Christian faiths that were quite as date happy as Jw's. as I proved on an earlier post it is easily googled.

  I have to say Mary you fit the example I find that many do on here, you condemn Jw's for a practise they once did and now have dropped, by there past acceptance of it and current condemnantion of the practise but yourself still do the practise and at no point apply this to yourself :S i'm sure there is a logical fallacy in this somewhere,

  It's like saying boy A used to climb a tree realised it was dangerous and stopped doing it but Boy B who still climbs the tree risking life and limb condemns boy A for once climbing the tree saying 'It's no point you realised it's dangerous now because you did it so are still wrong'

  and yet the bible allows for repentance of wrong actions as long as we finally recognise this and stop doing them.

  Well thats my thoughts, enjoy lol or not! this conversation is beginning to go over old territory from pages ago with not much left to cover. I'm pretty sure I covered my position on dates as something that doesn't overly bother me and thats that,

  Reniaa
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  besty

  Reniaa - you haven't answered my second question.

  Your answer to my first question (do you accept the 1919 doctrine) was maybe, then yes, then:

  I accept the dates because whether right or wrong the holy spirit must have been acting on or around that time for them to have been gifted with so many bible truths.

  So my followup question, which is not specific to 1919, given you accept that date but don't believe it:

  Please post a list of the unique beliefs the WTS was promoting at or around the beginning of the 20th Century (that they still promote today) to justify your claims of holy spirit at that time

  Mary and I have both posted numerous examples of 'former truth' from that time that now looks ridiculous and would be apostate - please take this opportunity to silence the naysayers and answer my question. We understand that the Holy Spirit didn't get it right first time with the WTS and they weren't perfect from day 1 (which begs the question which bits do they have wrong today).

  So all I'm asking is which bits were they gifted to get right, uniquely, to differentiate themselves from all the other restorationist groups in existence then.

  Afterall - your answer is the reason Jesus picked the WTS.
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  undercover

  you condemn Jw's for a practise they once did and now have dropped, by there past acceptance of it and current condemnantion of the practise but yourself still do the practise and at no point apply this to yourself :S i'm sure there is a logical fallacy in this somewhere,

  I know my post will be swallowed up in the torrent of replies, but I just have to comment on this statement...

  It is the Society that has claimed to be the channel for which Jehovah God uses to instruct and counsel "his people". To be a JW one must accept the range of teachings as prescribed by the authority of the WT Society, namely the Governing Body. These teachings are called "the Truth" as you well know.

  If this Body of men, who act as God's channel of communication, teach one thing but then change it...which teaching was the true one? The old one? Or is the new teaching true? Why did it change? If God communicated this, why did this God that cannot lie, lie? If God didn't communicate this, then the teachings that this group of men claim is from God, is not from God.

  Either the Society has erred or God has erred. Assuming that God cannot lie (if he even exists), then the fault would have to lie within the channel...the Society.

  The logical fallacy in your statement is to expect someone who points out the falsehoods of one who makes grandiose claims to live up to standards as set by the very one that is being exposed.