Looks Like I'm Back on the Radar- my Daughter has Local Elder Call on Me

by flipper 200 Replies latest members private

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  flipper

  O.K. Was taking a nap as I worked all last night ! LOL ! I'll respond to pg. 2 posters now. Thanks again.

  FLYING HIGH NOW - I hope the elder does tell my daughter to call me. I'd like to think he'd stick to his word. But then again he's an elder who uses theocratic warfare. If he DOES NOT tell my daughter to call me- I know to distrust him even more so.

  JUST HUMAN 14- The WT society is going crazy lately trying to go after people who haven't attended for years ! It's amazing. You think they would have better things to do with their time. Like create a new 1914 generation thing . Oh that's right- they just did that with " overlapping generations ."

  SONNY CROCKETT- Yeah, the elders HAVE to have two eyewitnesses to form a JC on someone in accusing them of something. I won't give 2 eyewitnesses the time of day.

  ST. GEORGE of ENGLAND- It did blow my mind when he said " blood transfusions are a conscience matter " . I don't know if he was just trying to deceive me or is really just blowing smoke out of total ignorance.

  OTWO- Yeah, It's not like I have anything to lose- I've already lost my daughters friendship for the last 7 years. So at this point if I can use this elder as a go-between with my daughter then perhaps my daughter would recognize HIS authority if he tells her to associate with me or call me. Of course, then again - my two daughters didn't recognize the Judicial committee's decision to overturn my DFing in 2007 and didn't honor the fact that I'm just inactive. They still treat me as I was DFEd in spite of being cleared. So I guees they DON"T recognize elders authority . But yes, I'm just going to talk fluff to them from this point on . I've said enough.

  SNOOZY- Exactly. Things change fast in JW land.

  TROUBLED MIND- Indeed. I was just relaxing half naked in my house trying to grapple with pulling my sweats up while this elder is ding donging my doorbell. Dogs going crazy and everything ! If it leads me to re-connecting with my daughter it may have been worth at least one call by him. We shall see how it plays out. Thanks.

  LONG HAIR GAL- Thanks sis. I appreciate it. No, I'm not DFed so the need for caution still so as to maintain a relationship with my older JW parents in their 80's. I hope I gave the elder something to think about in his own mind. I just figured- what the hell if I'm now on the radar as an " inactive JW " then I'm going to let him know WHY I'm an inactive JW and a fader. I'm all about communication and being upfront. But from here on out- if he brings someone else with him- I will clam up and just talk about the weather. Thanks again.

  DARTH FROSTY- I realize what you & Outlaw say is very true. I have no REAL friends in the WT organization. REAL friends don't treat us with conditional caring.

  LAVERITE- Good point you make. With family in the Witnesses it's impossible to TOTALLY be free. Good observation, I agree.

  WILLYLOMAN- You make a very good point with your example of the JW man and what his ex-wife did to him. Wow. A very good caution to me. I appreciate it. It could be that yes, now that I'm back on the radar I may have been moved from the " inactive " list to " needs action " list . Very true. But if they harass me - I'll give them some action they may not welcome. But I agree with you as others say- I will NOT say one more word about the organization or my views. I've said enough. It's time to stonewall them- especially if this elder brings another elder with him. Thanks. Good points.

  HEAVEN- Thanks. I will be avoiding them as I don't WANT to have a " next step " as you say. I just don't want anymore hassles from elders. They've hassled me enough in my 7 years of inactivity. Not gonna give them anything.

  INTERESTED ONE- An inactive JW can say he has doubts yes, but there is a careful line of dividing that you can't cross in talking with elders by saying the lethal words, " I don't believe this is Jehovah's organization ". If you say THAT- THEN the elders get down to serious business of forming a JC on you especially if you say that statement in front of 2 elders as eyewitnesses. Fortunately- I know the drill so I'll avoid that. And that question you mntioned would be a good one to tell the elders. " I'll ask for help when I'm ready " . That would be perfect. I might use that ne. Thanks.

  CANTLEAVE- Thanks for the cautionary words. I do know they could TRY to get a JC on me if my daughter told them I had talked to her about my differences with the organization- but I HAVEN'T talked with her about my differences with the organization on purpose- for that very reason. So they'll have nothing on me I've talked about to JW relatives. I always usually talk about non-JW topics with my daughter- even when I've written her letters it's aLWAYS only family stuff I talk about. Nothing JW. So hopefully it's my saving grace. Thanks.

  LAMAALCOOL- I may take your advice, yes. Just tell them I'm busy . And leave it at that.

  DAGNEY- Thanks. I'll send your hugs to my wife ! Good points you make. My daughter doesn't have any difficulties with me other than I stopped attending meetings and being a JW. We always had a close relationship. Maybe this elder will think about the shunning topic I brought upand see that it's unfair that my daughter is so resistant to having a relationship with me. As you said - I can only hope he follows through on his promise to tell her to call me. I sent her some pictures and a card telling her this guy called on me and that I was respectfl and hospitable to him- I would think THAT might impress her. We shall see. Should be interesting.

  MAD SWEENEY- Thanks, I appreciate it.

  FHN- I won't get my hopes up too much, I promse. I'm reasonable enough to realize that JW's DO spook easily as you stated , so I'm not expecting any grand reconciliation with my daughter. But just a short phone call would be nice if just to say " Hey ! Hi dad, glad you were nice to the elder. " You know- something of THAT nature. Crazy, isn't it ?

  TIKI- Yeah, well- the elder I'm sure is counting his time when he called on me. I'm not going to do what your husband does though and make this a regular return visit or anything. The next visit if he brings someone with him - it will e brief I assure you.

  WASBLIND- Yeah, good point you make. I don't know if this elder knowingly lied to me about the blood thing- or he's just not up tp speed and uninformed as to the current views. Who knows ? I know when I was a JW I did more personal study than many of the elders. Lots of time they are just in there for the title and glory. But maybe he will think about the things I told him

  Gotta go make some dinner now. Be back later ! Thanks again !
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  Retrovirus

  Hi Flipper,

  Just a thought - perhaps your daughter asking the elder to call was a sign that she misses you and is finding it painful to remain out of touch. I raised my children as a single parent and do know the difficulties of staying loyal to one or the other, and the pain we caused them with a messy break up. (and I am guilty of my share of that )

  As they matured, my two first confronted us both about particular times we'd handled things badly, then forgave me. I do hope your daughter is starting to move in this direction. Perhaps the elder suggesting she call you will allow her to make this move.

  Retro
• 

  djeggnog

  @flipper:

  You may not really want to hear what I think, since so many respondents have given you glowing reviews, but here are a few comments as to what I think about your strategy:

  What happened at the beginning of this visit was rather pleasant, and why shouldn't it be? You've got an elder in your home and he's visiting with you for the very first time, and this is certainly not the very first time that this elder has visited someone that he didn't really know at their home and talked to the person that was living there for 20 minutes or so, and it won't be the last time. So much for the small talk.

  If he is visiting you at the request of your daughter, what exactly did she say to the elder? Did you give any thought to what she might have said to the man? What if he was struck at first by the fact that you were currently inactive and have been such for seven years? If I were he, I'd have asked your daughter if there were any reasons of which she was aware for your inactivity. Was it due to the kind of work that you did? Was it due to mental or physical incapacity? It is what your daughter said to this elder next that could be your death knell. I don't know what your daughter said to the man, and you don't either.

  What if she told this elder: "Well, Bro. Elder, he had been involved in a Judicial Committee years ago that led to his being disfellowshipped, but after an appeal, the action was reversed"? This wouldn't be much of a reason for you to be concerned. I have absolutely no reason to believe that your daughter had an agenda for telling this elder about you; she loves you and would like it very much if you were to start attending meetings again on a regular basis. But elders do have an agenda: To keep the congregation clean. I want you to be clear on this as I now continue here. Now what if your daughter were to have voluntarily told the elder the following, @flipper:

  "My father does a lot of research about Jehovah's Witnesses on line, and has even joined a blog where he meets with mostly disfellowshipped Witnesses to discuss the Society and various things that he doesn't agree with that we discuss in the Watchtower. He disagrees with the Society's view of higher education being necessary for Christians. He disagrees with our position on blood. And he doesn't agree with the recent information about overlapping generations. He has told me that he thinks the Society is just using the organization to get free medical insurance, free meals, free lodging so that they don't have to get real jobs."

  If this elder came to your home knowing you already had these views, then this visit will not likely lead to the result you might wish, for what you will have done is confirm all of the things that your own daughter may have already told him before his visit to your home. But let's just assume that your daughter mentioned none of these things to this elder, ok? Since you cannot be a witness against yourself, what if the visit at the behest of your daughter is just a pretext for an investigation, a fishing expedition? If so, then you're done, and I'll tell you why, but, first, I'm going to tell you a little about me so you know why I view things the way I do:

  I'm a licensed LDA, and in my work I conduct many interviews with people, homeowners that have lost title to their homes, but are still living in them, meaning that they are still in possession dn the banks have sued them in order to obtain a writ of possession to evict them, not to try to determine whether anyone if guilty of criminal wrongdoing, but to prepare them as witnesses for trial in post-foreclosure eviction defense cases. I interrogate folks to learn what they might say under pressure when the plaintiff-bank takes them on direct examination or when the other side is given greater latitude in their questioning on cross-examination. The trial lawyer is the one that will be representing them in court, the one asking them questions during the trial, but I work for the trial lawyer and my job is to break you down by posing the kind of questions to them that their lawyer might ask or that the lawyer on the other side might ask them. Their answers to these questions could mean the difference between the judge ruling in their favor or the sheriff's department visiting their home in three weeks with a five-day notice to evict his or her family from their home of 20 years (or longer). We want to keep these people in their homes and we're pretty good at doing this, but we do not want the client to make things up, as some have done when testifying, or to bring up the fact that they might have unsuccessfully tried to obtain a loan modification, which may be factually true, but an irrelevant fact in a civil trial for possession of the defendant's home. When they do things like this, we lose, and so does our client, the defendant. Unfortunately, I have to agree with @TotallyADD, who wrote:

  Although I think the elder was fishing. Does your daughter know how you feel on these subjects you talk about with this elder. If she does she may be the 2nd witness needed to df you.

  In writing about the strategy that you intend to use upon his next visit to your home, you wrote:

  But he'll get a BIG surprise if he comes back with ANOTHER elder - because I only invited HIM ALONE back.

  But now think about this for a moment: Whether or not you told your daughter about any of this stuff that you admitted to him at your home, if she didn't tell him about any of the things that you told him during his visit to your home, and he should go to her to ask her to confirm whether or not you have ever told her any of those things that you admittedly told the elder during his visit, then you're toast. Why? Let me repeat here what @TotallyADD wrote:

  Although I think the elder was fishing. Does your daughter know how you feel on these subjects you talk about with this elder. If she does she may be the 2nd witness needed to df you.

  You are not a child molester, but in the case of child molesters, they never do what they do with witnesses present, so although we do report what they did to the authorities, we need to use independent witnesses to disfellowship these child molesters from the congregation. If we have two independent witnesses from the same congregation that report the same behavior to us, or if we are able to find two independent witnesses, one who made a report in the local congregation and one from a report made in another congregation from where he might have come before relocating to the local congregation, how on earth can you hope to escape the two-witness rule? If this visit should turn out to have been a pretext for an investigation, then your daughter may have unwittingly made it easier for the elders to establish what your position on things is!

  Matthew 18:16 states that "at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established," and so while this elder would be Witness #1 to these statements, your daughter would be Witness #2. You were safe saying those things here on JWN, but not to an elder at your home.

  @djeggnog
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  flipper

  HEAVEN- If I answered the door naked - they'd REALLY have my butt at a JC meeting in no time ! LOL ! Wouldn't want elders looking at my kibbles & bits anyway- God knows they know ENOUGH already about my personal life !

  VAMPIRE- Thanks bud. I won't get my hopes up too high about my daughter. We'll see what happens. You are right- JW's ARE unpredictable even in the best of times so it's a 50/50 call as to whether the elder TOLD my daughter to call me. Hopefully I gave him something to think about.

  DING- Hopefully that elder will think about the things I told him and start to wonder himself.

  SNOWBIRD- Thanks Snowy - I hope your daughter and my 2 daughters eventually see through this mind control cult as well. Thanks .

  PALMTREE- THanks so much, I'll send the flowers to my wife . Appreciate the sentiment.

  WHATHAPPENED- I'll definitely keep you folks updated on this situation . Thanks again.

  TOTALLY ADD- The question you asked " Does my daughter know how you feel on these subjects ? " My answer is basically " No " she does not. Except I have talked to her about my concern about the child abuse policies of the WT society a few years ago- I have NEVER talked with her about my doubts regarding the generation overlap, higher education, or the blood transfusion teaching. I've avoided those 3 subjects for the very reason you stated so as NOT to give her any ammo against me. I agree with you tht the WT society is VERY concerned with elders talking with us longtime inactive members because they don't want elders being persuaded away from their belief system. It's a real danger in their opinion. I will watch my back, thanks, I know elders can be tricky in these types of situations. I'll be careful indeed. Thanks for the heads up.

  MRS. JONES- Yes, it WILL be ineresting once the elder comes back. IF he comes back.

  OUTLAW- Yeah, I've tried o have my ducks in a row- but I'm prepared to be blindsided as well. You just NEVER know which angle these guys are going to come at you with. I try to think in abstract ways so as to be prepared for whatever they come up with. Thanks for the JWN support ! I really appreciate it !

  RETROVIRUS- You make some outstanding points . I agree with you- I think this has to do a lot with my daughter missing our relationship for sure. Sending the elder was her way of indirectly saying she misses me. Hopefully since I sent her a letter indicating I talked with the guy and was nice and respectful it will help her see I'm civil and decent. I can only hope. My older son ( her brother 26 yrs.old ) said he thinks my JW ex-wife ( their mother ) has had quite a negative influence on both my JW daughters by badmouthing me and saying I'm rebellious at every chance she gets. He told me when they were teenagers and I shared joint custody with their JW mom- she would badmouth me constantly and try turning all 3 of my children against me. So I think you're on to something here that at age 24 now- my daughter might slowly be FINALLY maturing to see through the prejudice her mom has maligned me with for the last 13 years since the divorce. I can only hope that is what's happening here. I hope you're right. It will be interesting to see what happens
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  jookbeard

  DJ- you are completely and utterly wrong on your last 2 paragraphs on how the WTS reports child abuse issues to the authorities, that's why the Suffer Little Children programme was broadcast from Scotland due to this negligence the the WTS is so guilty of.
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  Retrovirus

  @DJeggnog,

  Appreciate that you have a paralegal rather than a legal perspective. I'm not sure of you position with the WTB&Ts, but you are certainly not doing them any favours. (fyi, I'm a not-jw with friends and out-laws in).

  Applying a two-witness rule to separate incidents is, well, legally ridiculous.

  As an optimist, i'd think better of Flipper's daughter and the elder in question until proven otherwise.

  And finally, lighten up! The law is not everything. Love is greater, much greater - remember the Bible?

  Retro
• 

  cyberjesus

  I bet you a bottle of champagne that he is gonna rat on you. No matter how nice they seem.. a Jdub is a Jdub
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  Heaven

  You have No Friends in Watchtower World..No one does..

  Outlaw, thank you for this. My Dad is living with me now. His JW 'friends' have asked for my address. It is not publicly available. I won't be giving it to them.
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  Iron Head

  Three pages to read. I don't have that much time. I'll cut to the chase, Flipper

  For the last 7 years I've presented myself as an unbelieving relative to any JW's calling on our door so as to be able to talk openly to them.

  7 years?

  Really? You have lived a lie for 7 years? You've encouraged JW activity by your cowardly silence for 7 years? How much JW blood is on your hands, Fipper?

  It may be time to "present" yourself as what and who you are, don't you think? Time to stand up for what and who you are? Time to be a man?
• 

  wobble

  Iron head is about right, Mr Flipper has explained that he does not want to be DF'd at present because his elderly JW parents would feel obliged to have nothing to do with him if that were the case.

  Courage has nothing to do with it, this snivelling little cult of the Watchtower exercises its totalitarian hold on members by means of its ex-communication policy (Dis-fellowshipping is a word not in the dictoinary)

  I am in the same position, and if I lose the last bit of time with my Mother because of standing up for what I know to be true, will you get her back from the dead for me ?

  It is far from easy, choosing this method, I would rather let 'em all have it, but I have no choice, neither does Flipper.