by Quentin 189 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Although there have been some strong comments made on both sides the thread has been civil, without rancor. Thanks everbody for that, makes for an intelegent lively back and forth. One thing I haven't seen is an objective comment from either side. Perhaps I'm not bright enough to recognize one when it's there......
Personely, for me, there is no right or wrong answer to the question. It's where you find yourself as you go through life.
I get it that you're "done." Saddens me, truly, but I get it.
One might observe that you're done, too, Shelby. But, a question. Through WHOM did you find God? Surely not a man or woman? I have had the impression these past 6 months that you found him yourself.
I never heard an actual voice, but I thought God spoke to me at one time. I wound up in the Jehovah's Witnesses then.
I have since learned that the God of people's beliefs doesn't exist and all contact with God, angels, or the Holy Spirit is some kind of chemical, psychological, or emotional event, or perhaps a combination of those.
Blast away, believers. I was bored anyway, but I stand by my statement.
Does God speak to me and if so how? Well, my personal experience is that He does speak to me - but in the same ways as many others have expressed - thru the beauties of creation, thru the playful antics of his creatures, thru the happiness of small children and sooner7nc - your experience brought tears of joy to my eyes as I imagined just how you must have felt. And there are just countless other ways He speaks to me too - sometimes I feel He is speaking to me thru the scriptures, sometimes He even reaches my heart thru some of you, believe it or not.
And no - I have never heard his audible voice myself - though the Bible obviously has many examples of when that has occurred. I do have friends - at least one that I can think of recently that said he heard God speaking to him - and he was surprised God had a "young voice" - he expected God to have a deep voice like Br Sydlik. Well I have never had an experience like that myself - think it was very real to him and I don't wish to pass judgment on whether it was God or not. That's not mine to wonder or worry about.
But I could share another experience in which I felt God "used me" to speak an answer to a Sister's problems. Maybe this doesn't qualify for inclusion here but I offer it anyway - as another possible way God speaks using our fellowmen. This sister has had many children in the past and had eclampsia nearly every time. It seemed her eclampsia was becoming more and more serious and she was pregnant once again - think this was the 11th child but not sure of the numbers. She prayed diligently to Jehovah for help. I had never met her before - she lived about two hours drive away from me but we each had a mutual friend in a local congregation here. The local friend suggested she should come and see me since I am involved or used to be involved in the healing arts. So she called me that evening. As the phone rang I had just set down the book The Doctor's Report by John Ellis and had just that very moment concluded reading chapter 7 on the subject eclampsia in pregnancy - its causes, effects and prevention - prior to that evening I had never even heard of the subject before. It was almost unbelievable to me that she should call on that subject at that time - conincidence - possibly - Vitamin B6 was the answer he gives. It may not work in every case but it works in many many cases and I couldn't help but think about sooner7nc above too just now. Anyway I told her about some of the bad effects - one of them mental retardation and she replied - yes, I know - my last child has that problem due to the eclampsia the doctors told her. So I suggested she get herself a copy of the book and talk to her doctor about the info in it. She was pregnant at the time - about in the 4th or 5th month. She began the recommended supplementation immediately and for the first time she produced a child without the eclampsia - coincidence again - possibly. But she was so happy and the whole congregation was so happy that all of them came to see me. That child is now an adult. She felt God had used me to answer her prayer - He knew just which of His servants had the information and the timing was incredible. It is a joy to be used that way. Subjective speculations - possibly. But I have had more than one experience of a similar vein even for myself in searching for information. This is one powerful way I feel God uses to communicate to us and give us joy at the same time.
Through WHOM did you find God? Surely not a man or woman? I have had the impression these past 6 months that you found him yourself.
It was through Christ, dear Nick (peace to you!), who I found through God. The "event" occurred in early 1995. We were a chapter or so into studying the "Greatest Man" Book and I was confused. It seemed to ME, that if "Christ" died for ME... you know, gave his life and blood, said come to him, poured out holy spirit, etc., then we should know a little more (well, actually, a LOT more) about him than the WTBTS was letting on. Everything was "Jehovah, Jehovah, Jehovah." I had read MANY times that we are to kiss the SON. And I had heard "someone" speak to me at the 1994 spring DC regarding the WTBTS error as to the "separating work" (I wrote them about what I heard in March 1994, but had not heard back, now a year later).
Anyway, apparently I made a request during that Book Study... which I wasn't fully conscience of or remembered. Until about 3 weeks later. I didn't feel well and was laying on my bed... midafternoon... looking out into the hallway. Nothing unusual going on, just laying there "resting"... when I heard a voice call my name. I ignored it, of course, because I really didn't believe I'd heard it. Then it called again... and I became sort of confused and a little frightened. I thought, "Okay, am I going crazy, losing my mind, what?" but I ignored it again. It called again and then asked "Why don't you answer?"
So, okay, now I was beginning to think that either I was going crazy... or demons were talking to me. Please note that a year after I wrote to the Society regarding their erroneous teaching, I partook... at the 1995 Memorial. Just before that, I received a letter from the WTBTS regarding my letter the previous year... asking me to "be patient; something may be forthcoming." Other than that, nothing significant happened to me after that, so I didn't link the two. I partook because I had known for years that I should... and had grown increasingly ashamed for NOT doing so each year, because each year I would hear a voice ask me, "Why are you passing by life, child?" or something to that effect. Each year I vowed I wouldn't let another year go by, but I did for 9 years. Because I was afraid of what "they" would do to my family/children. Eventually, my family told me to do what I knew I had to, so I did. Things did get slightly hairy after that, but nothing unsurmountable (couple of gossips, some rudeness, etc., but I could handle it and so could my family).
Anyway, I heard the voice call my name again, and when I remained silent ask me why I didn't answer. Again, I though "demons", but I'm a bit of a foolish one (as you may now know), so at some point I decided, "Okay, alright, I'm going to call its bluff and answer." So, the next time I heard my name, I responded. I asked, "Who is this, please?" and I immediately heard TWO voices. One said, "I am the One known to you as 'Jehovah'" and the other said, simultaneously, "I am the Christ."
Of course, I thought, uh-uh, demons, going crazy, something... but this has to stop. So, I shut down. I heard my name called again, I refused to respond/answer and so I heard, "Why don't you answer?" Well, all right, I thought, let's play this game and see how it turns out! So, I again asked, "Who is this, please?" and heard the same response: "I am the One known to you as 'Jehovah'" simultaneously with, "I am the Christ."
Okkkaaayyyy. I decided to pursue it. I asked, "If you are 'Jehovah' can I ask you something?"... and immediately I "felt" one presence leave, while one remained. The one remaining said, "No one comes to the Father except through me." Ummmm... okay. I'll play along. "And who are YOU?" I asked, to which "he" replied, "I am the Christ." (Note, yes, his words were in English... originally. As time went on, they changed, and my understanding of language changed. But that's another story. I digress.).
So, I asked "him"... "And why are YOU here?" and his answer surprised and startled me. He said, "Because you asked for me." Now, I am still thinking this might be a "demon" ('cause that's what "they" tell you, right?) and so I said, "No, I didn't." And in that moment I was taken back to that day of the Book Study, in the KH, back in my seat... and I heard myself "praying". I was saying, "Jehovah, I know you exist and I love you; but it seems to ME that I should know your Son. Since he gave his life for me, it seems to ME that I should know much more about him than I do, that he should be given a little more attention that we give him," or something to that effect. I said, "But I don't know what I'm supposed to believe so, please, send me your truth. Let me know YOUR truth."
And it was in that moment that I realize that Truth himself had been sent to me. I was... humbled is too indescriptive a word. I cannot explain what I was, but I was certainly grateful. So, I asked "him", "Okay, if you're the Christ, can I ask YOU something?" to which he replied, "You can ask me anything." And so I did. Many things. MANY, MANY things. It did not stop that day, that week, that month... that year. It simply started then.
I asked him personal questions, I asked biblical questions, I asked prophetic questions, I even asked a few "silly" questions. And he answered all but one, which one he answered just last year (it had to do with my son).
That first day, though, I also asked him why he had come to me, I mean, I know (now) that I asked, but what about others who asked? His answer left me dumbstruck. He said, "Because you have faith the size of a mustard seed, child, so as to answer when called." Ummmmm... faith? I had faith?! The size of a mustard seed? But MY faith didn't even compare with Sister So-and-So's and Brother Whosit. And then I had one of the saddest and most overwhelming thoughts I'd ever had: Wait! if I had faith... where in the WORLD was everyone ELSE who seemed to have faith?? He's come to ME... not some of THEM: omigawd, where is their faith REALLY?? Scared the bejeebies outta me!
Just as quickly, however, I began to feel a little... well... sure of myself. Heck, I had faith!! I mean, I always knew there was a "voice" speaking to me, and, sure, I didn't really know "who" it was, but, yeah, okay... I could see where I had a bit of faith. And then my Lord brought me back down to earth. He said, "You only had what I gave you, child, and only because you asked for me."
Ummmmm... air went right out that THAT balloon! I apologized for my "arrogance" and realized that he was right: I hadn't been more faithful than anyone else, other than perhaps listening when I heard the voice and now, answering when it called me. I took a chance, called a bluff... and the rest if history.
So, I can't say that I found God or Christ, dear Nick. I have to say that they came and found me... because I asked to know GOD's truth... which turned out to be my Lord. Made what is recorded at John 14:6, and John 8:32, 36 make all the sense in the world. When folks say they want to the "know the truth," they most often mean they was to know "stuff" - facts, data, information. For me, I wanted to know Christ... who IS the Truth. At least, He is God's Truth.
And that's what happened, truthfully. The rest is, as they say, history. What he has told and shown me, however, has been SO... well, off the top/hook/chain/charts... that I wanted to share it. So, I started with a few intimate ones. As a result, they too asked... and have come to have a similar relationship! Then one say he asked me if I would go to "the Household of God, Israel" and share what I received with them. How could I say no? He warned me that I would not be welcome, but it would mean a lot to him... because he loved them. And so... I was sent to H2O (a predecessor Internet board like JWN). When that shut down, I was sent here... and have been here ever since.
My "commission" ended over a year or so ago (i.e., my Lord released me, thanking me, and saying that he is now indebted to me, for a place in his kingdom!); however, I have come to have such a great love for those here (Israel)... both believers and non-believers... that I feel I would be abandoning them if I left. Well, I felt that until recently. While there are still some here that I would feel that for, "Israel" is slowly moving on from this City. In one way or another. Some have found freedom in Christ and so no longer need to come here; others have had their faith completely shipwrecked. But I have been here 10 years... and fulfilling my assignment for about 15 years, now... and while my spirit is still as refreshed as ever, my flesh is a bit "tired" due to chronic illness (i.e., diabetes) that has really kind of kicked my butt. I am not dying (think/hope), nor is my quality of life diminished, but my body is going through it. And that makes it tough to act kind and loving all the time. I don't want to be so toward ANYONE, and so from time to time I contemplate taking my leave. We'll see how that turns out.
Anyway, I hope this helps shed some light on things, if not for you for anyone else who wanted to know. I have posted this before (maybe more than once), so I've nothing to hide.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
That was so cool,.....I got a chance to learn from Shelby without all the extra,......very pleasant
jay,
"Does 'god' speak to me?"
Since most of you appear to be discussing the approximately-4,000-year-old Middle-Eastern-male-volcano-god, then....
NO. That particular 'deity' has absolutely NEVER spoken to me.
I 'hear' the earth, however. I 'hear' its breath in the wind, see its tears in the rain, see its awakening every morning with the rotation of the earth and see its seasonal awakening every spring, see its long winter nap begin late every fall.
The Middle-Eastern 'god' may have only been around for a few thousand years; the nature 'deities' of the older religions may have only been around for a few TENS of thousands of years; the most ancient forms of human "worship" - the goddesses - er, 'goddesses' - may have only been around for a few HUNDREDS of thousands of years, but the earth has been here before ALL of that...
In its truest sense, the earth is the ultimate "parent" - and visibly, solidly, materially so...
Worshipping the earth itself makes the most sense, to me, for it is the earth itself that nurtures me, it is the earth itself that feeds me, that gives me a dark, restful night and bright, shining days, water to drink, herbs for healing, landscapes which beauty takes my breath away, and so many forms of beauty that I cannot begin to describe them.
The earth is the one thing that comes closest to being my eternal "mother", and supporting that - "her" - by doing my best to extend the effectiveness of its life-supporting systems - is the only logical, truly life-supporting behavior possible.
Zid
Just checking in. I'll read your long post, Shelby (methinks you're feeling better already) and respond later.
AGuest --- witnesses make their prayers through Christ, right, so i'm assuming they're addressing the matter correctly just not giving him proper
I had an experience (nothing like yours) one early a.m. when i couldn't sleep and was praying to Jehovah (i'm still confused as to Jesus, God, being one --- trinity, etc., proper salutation and now pray using the name or title, 'Our Father') and experienced the strongest presence of Christ (or as i envision/portray him) and i didn't ask for this or to feel his presence but for answers and was asking for comfort and help in situation from God. this was totally unexpected and immensely shocking because i was praying to God, using the name, Jehovah, with no thought of my prayer being directed to Christ, but only praying through him. it was certainly unusual to me, and i think about often. it was like he was there --- and so real. in my head/heart it was telling me to let Christ be the important factor in my life and not all the other crazy situations, or as the w/tower is always expounding on Jehovah and not Christ.
God speaks to me via paycheck. I wouldn't keep making more money and getting raises if he didn't love me, right?
