An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut
    OK Mr. OnTheWayOut, please, are you a believer who is angry at the god, or are you wasting time?

    It is an endless argument, but how can you credit Him for ending it while not faulting Him for standing by with all the power in the world to do something about innocent death but choosing not to?

    There is no God intervening when good people dig people out of the rubble. If you want to say there is, then I ask why He waited until the innocent died to send help? I am not angry at a fictional God. I just point out the obvious.

    Fruitless argument: There is a God. I know because [ (a) the Bible says so. (b) He told me. (c) I just have a feeling.] (pick as many as you like.)
    He is credited with all the good and none of the bad.
    He is so powerful that HE COULD stop the bad but He has a reason. I know because [ (a) the Bible says so. (b) He told me. (c) I just have a feeling.]

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    A man Jesus Christ is the reason I found God. I don't have a feeling. He did not tell me. So I chose (a) because how else would I know Jesus?

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    I keep hearing how atheists or non believers have a different "view" and that the actual, logical facts that they provide are just "viewpoints".

    I can say the sky is blue. That is a fact accepted by the general population, however, if someone says that the sky is green, that doesn't stray from the truth, and that is that the sky is blue. Just because someone refuses scientifically, logically proven truth and believes their "viewpoint" that doesn't mean that you can drag down the fact to your level and call it a "viewpoint".

    The sad thing is that the reason all of these arguments exist is because of religion. What would motivate atheists or non believers to argue with believers? It's simple, for me at least it's because I'd rather live in a society of human beings who can face reality (and thus make better more important decisions, and also not have their mind focused on a delusional religion) rather than in a society where these people are a minority as we do now. Why do believers argue? To defend their God from the constant onslaught of logical proofs, scientific evidence and ancient fossils and artifacts that continually and further disprove their sacred holy books. The fact that Christians have to constantly be on the defense is (to me) just more proof that there is something incorrect concerning their religion or beliefs. Most things that are held to be true and real (gravity for example) are NOT under constant onslaught of opposing ideas, and yet religions are (and their members hold their religion to be so true).

    What arguments can religion use to prove god?

    Why is there something rather than nothing? That's a pretty famous one used by theists of every belief. Of course it's an argument against themselves because they aren't actually assuming there once was nothing. To them there was always something, and that is their deity, and this begs the question that who created their deity?

    They also are usually on the offensive concerning evolution. They try to poke holes in evolutionary theory and the fossil record. Of course they deny physical proof, and refuse to accept the truth (and fact) that evolution was/is/ and will happen forever until the end of species on Earth.

    When Christians are faced with opposition they only make excuses because there ISN'T a factual answer concerning any of these opposing proofs. There isn't anything that will ever satisfy us non-believers because we strive for facts and physical evidence (something that religion can't provide us with). For non-believers it's very frustrating, and sometimes depressing that so many human beings believe what they do, and then act out on it with whatever form of force (aggressive or passive) they deem fit. Millions of people have been killed over something as simple and stupid as religion, millions of people will die due to religion in the future.

    However, we are reaching a time where we will be able to disprove the Bible, the Quran, and every other religious book that has ever been written by simply using the scientific method, and hard, physical proof. And that day, my friends, will be one of the most beautiful, consciousness lifting, cloud clearing days in the history of human kind.

  • sizemik
    sizemik
    Those caught up in delusion in their productive mental years will harm others by failing to use the brain and sometimes genius housed therein to benefit mankind. . . . AK Jeff

    This strikes a chord with me . . . religious delusion because of it's pervasiveness and persistence is the most regressive influence on Earth. Humankind would be way ahead of where it is at the moment without it . . . of that I am convinced.

    You only end up in a fruitless argument with him. . . . watersprout

    When is a discussion fruitless? . . . when someone isn't listening to me? . . . when I'm not listening to them? . . . or both?

    And that day, my friends, will be one of the most beautiful, consciousness lifting, cloud clearing days in the history of human kind. . . . TheUbermensch

    Indeed it will . . .

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    If any believer can show me one tangible thing that they can do because they've discovered Jesus / Christ / Krishna that cannot be done by other , normal, non-supernatural means then we maybe have something to discuss RE reasons for belief (beyond mere cultural conditioning or the desire to believe.)

    As for the evidence - the original point still stands - all evil is the responsibility of the causitive effect if said causitive effect is sentient, the continuance of all evil in the presence of an all powerful sentience is an indicator of the character of that being, the future planning for future evil to inflict on future beings by an omnipotent other is a thing of dreadful disgust.

    All gods suck.

  • Twitch
  • N.drew
    N.drew

    You all got to be kidding. This is what I see when Jehovah goes away. NOTHING. LOL!!! OK, it will be beautiful? OMG. Like a religious person's after life? Without Jehovah there is nothing. Safe to believe in nothing, when nothing happens to you, you can't know it.

    And you, uber, so many words for nanananan, I'm right and your wrong. Stupid stupid. Sigh.

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    There is a God I know because He is with me and I can feel him even stronger when I ask, my husband says the same. We never had this as JWs even though we thought we knew God then, we didn't. He gives me feelings, answers and direct answers to my prayers. Before I was born-again I put faith in Him due to studying works of Christian scientists and historians.

    I have already stated that I don't have an answer to everything, but I will never leave my God. He rescued me from a cult and gives me whatever I need. He has even made me a better, more loving, less judgmental person.

    If I have a need it is met. This did not happen before I was born-again. I have prayed sincerely and in faith for needs and they have been very obviously answered over and over again. (1) One time I was staying at an ex-Jws house and I was exhausted, emotionally, mentally, physically, spiritually. There were three families there and only myself and my husband were Christians. Several of them wanted to explain why they did not believe in God. I ran to my room there and I prayed and I slept. When I woke I couldn't come out of the room. I prayed to God that I needed my husband. I needed him or I couldn't leave the room. Seconds later he knocks on the door. (2) One day (after I had already received Jesus) the Holy Spirit led me to a church. I knocked on the door and I listened to the youth pastor's wife when she got her Bible. I listened and I cried. I found out later that was the one time out of the whole year that she was home on that day of the week. She has a normal routine of ministry that would have had that house empty any other day. (3) I was doing my Bible study and the topic was God's people. I knew what a scripture said but didn't know where to find it. I prayed for guidance because I knew I didn't have time to look it up and this was important to me. I turned right to the page. I didn't even believe it was the right page at first, but there is was, the third sentence I read. (4) I was on a walk with my little boy and he was being very unruly, trying to run away from me to cross the busy street. I prayed for help and when we got to the preschool, the teacher came out of her house to see if we needed help! (5) Another day I had been at my JW parent's house and was feeling very down. I needed someone. I prayed that God send someone to me because I didn't know who to go to. My long-distance Christian friend called me about an hour later. It was the second time in 2 years that we had ever spoken on the phone. (6) I was disappointed last weekend because we missed the neighborhood picnic. I was crying to my husband that nothing would ever change and we wouldn't have friends. I don't know where to find friends for my children. We have been alone for years. I prayed that God help me and my kids find a community so that we aren't alone. I didn't know if it needed to be school, a support group, a karate class, something, anything. God please lead me because I am so confused and this is too much to handle right now. We just need friends. Two days later our neighbor invited my daughter to AWANA club. She loves it. There is also a ladies bible study group the same night. It is wonderful. Friends for both of us! Then some exJW friends called me after that and invited us to there house to meet someone else who is just now coming out. The friends who called me are older than my parents, but the new ex-JWs are the same age as us with kids the same age! (7) My husband was struggling with something and I got on my knees and prayed for him. Later that day my pastor called me. He had not met my husband. Was my husband home? He asked. He could come by and talk to him for a few minutes. Yes he was home and I wasn't turning him down. God is good! There are others but these were the prayers that were answered very quickly and very obviously.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    EMy challenge still stands SoG. None of your experiences, however meaningful to you, are anything supernatural since you seem to have a powerful confirmation bias operating here.

    If you are in such an emotional state that you need to pray for friends or help with your child then you will see anything as an answer. None of your problems seem to be of any comparison to the people dying in floods, earthquakes or praying for protection from abuse.

    If god is answering your prayers for people to pop over for a chat why are there starving people in Africa? Do you seriously believe god is ordering the cosmos to give you a social life while inflicting over a 1000 deaths a day due to dirty drinking water on innocent children?

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Yes SOG! I just love when it happens that I am thinking foggy about something I read in the Bible and the page opens right to it!

    Some of you atheist say it would be a better world without Jesus and we who believe in him. How is that different than loving Jesus and believing in him? Both are unprovable using the scientific method, yet you believe your opinion is best.

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