An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

  • tec
    tec

    UC, the only thing that happens as Armageddon is that God acts to protect His people from those who are actively seeking to harm them, kill them, and continue to CAUSE all this suffering. He acts at such a time, when no one who is 'innocent' or who does not seek to cause harm, will be harmed themselves. (we can get an understanding of that from Sodom/Gomorrah... in that if even one 'righteous or good' person was found, then God would spare the whole place on account of that one)

    When those people who are so filled with hate and darkness and anger, have chosen their path to destroy and to harm, and aren't willing (free will) to change. If even one 'good/innocent/righteous' person is among them, then God waits. Out of mercy, out of love... for that one.

    God is the only one can see and know when that time is. We couldn't possibly have a clue.

    Peace,

    Tammy

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    "I am making all things new" says Jah. Once the baptism through fire is accomplished, free will will remain. But because of the baptism, that was accomplished in each person who survives "the end", the sin will exterminate him or, lets be fair, her who sins. So they will die "in one day" like was promised Adham, not die like we die long and painfully. But Jaheshua isn't the executioner, neither is anyone else in heaven the executioner. The baptism is what will cause the death of the sinner. We have the choice to complete the race to the baptism. But I believe the baptism happens for all, in one day. We don't choose it, it is something that happens to complete justice. That is how I understand it. You know I might be on cloud nine. So?

  • undercover
    undercover

    You truly have a dizzying intellect. (I plagerized that, BTW)

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    The baptism is what will cause the death of the sinner.

    N.drew As every gladiator knows, the idea of being a deliberate, godless sinner is to make sure that the sins we commits are of such a grave nature that death eventually results, due to the excessive nature of the depravity involved.

    This saves your god the bother of making himself look bad by executing us. It also make both living and dying, tremendous fun.

  • N.drew
    N.drew
    It also make both living and dying, tremendous fun.

    Yes, it does, doesn't it?

    This saves your god the bother of making himself look bad by executing us

    But..but..reality and world and all the stuff is what causes the baptism. Why do you call the baptism god? Why? It isn't god. It is something that happens.

  • LV101
    LV101

    God has given us this magnificent earth and we are endowed w/unlimited potential to do good and feed/provide medical attn. to the world. We are a miserable failure in my opinion. The "Feeding the Children," is an incredible example (small, of course) but we're too busy investing in our own lives rather than serving others --- we've been given the earth and it's our responsibility. Sadly, I can't say I've walked away from my comforts to help those starving, dying, children. It's a concerted effort joining organizations/groups that are legitimate. Some of the xtian organizations (i'm not endorsing any) are doing much along with groups such as Rotary, etc., but it's time consuming/costly for the median class to be involved and sacrifice.

    I see women in organizations slaving (for self-enhancement, power and prominence in the group's hierarchy) to contribute on a local basis --- and some provide tremendous aid, but it's not global and we are to love/care for our neighboring third world countries. Our farmers would rather plow agricultural products underground protecting their margin profit (after all man has to make a livin' and pay for their children's education/country clubs for status) and this is reality. Materialism chokes and is a drug addiction and we can't walk away and follow the Christ forsaking our desires yet we can gather enough tax money to send man to the moon and make our politicians filthy rich but who wants to risk their health, life, possessions, feel-good pleasures (bla bla) and help others if it's not thru this forced avenue (which half of society pays nothing and more cheat & doesn't work and goes into the wrong hands anyway). It takes a drastic change of heart of following the Christ.

  • poopsiecakes
    poopsiecakes

    You truly have a dizzying intellect. (I plagerized that, BTW)

    anybody want a peanut?

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    Ahahahahahah.

    Of course there is no post about the refuted proofs towards Plantinga's Free Will Defense, including the Evidential Problem of Evil.

    (Taken from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

    Criticisms of Rowe’s argument tend to focus on its first premise, sometimes dubbed “the factual premise,” as it purports to state a fact about the world. Briefly put, the fact in question is that there exist instances of intense suffering which are gratuitous or pointless. As indicated above, an instance of suffering is gratuitous, according to Rowe, if an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented it without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse. A gratuitous evil, in this sense, is a state of affairs that is not (logically) necessary to the attainment of a greater good or to the prevention of an evil at least as bad.

    i Rowe’s Case in Support of the Factual Premise

    Rowe builds his case in support of the factual premise by appealing to particular instances of human and animal suffering, such as the following:

    E1: the case of Bambi
    “In some distant forest lightning strikes a dead tree, resulting in a forest fire. In the fire a fawn is trapped, horribly burned, and lies in terrible agony for several days before death relieves its suffering” (Rowe 1979: 337).

    Although this is presented as a hypothetical event, Rowe takes it to be “a familiar sort of tragedy, played not infrequently on the stage of nature” (1988: 119).

    E2: the case of Sue
    This is an actual event in which a five-year-old girl in Flint, Michigan was severely beaten, raped and then strangled to death early on New Year’s Day in 1986. The case was introduced by Bruce Russell (1989: 123), whose account of it, drawn from a report in the Detroit Free Press of January 3 1986, runs as follows:

    The girl’s mother was living with her boyfriend, another man who was unemployed, her two children, and her 9-month old infant fathered by the boyfriend. On New Year’s Eve all three adults were drinking at a bar near the woman’s home. The boyfriend had been taking drugs and drinking heavily. He was asked to leave the bar at 8:00 p.m. After several reappearances he finally stayed away for good at about 9:30 p.m. The woman and the unemployed man remained at the bar until 2:00 a.m. at which time the woman went home and the man to a party at a neighbor’s home. Perhaps out of jealousy, the boyfriend attacked the woman when she walked into the house. Her brother was there and broke up the fight by hitting the boyfriend who was passed out and slumped over a table when the brother left. Later the boyfriend attacked the woman again, and this time she knocked him unconscious. After checking the children, she went to bed. Later the woman’s 5-year old girl went downstairs to go to the bathroom. The unemployed man returned from the party at 3:45 a.m. and found the 5-year old dead. She had been raped, severely beaten over most of her body and strangled to death by the boyfriend.

    Following Rowe (1988: 120), the case of the fawn will be referred to as “E1″, and the case of the little girl as “E2″. Further, following William Alston’s (1991: 32) practice, the fawn will be named “Bambi” and the little girl “Sue”.

    Rowe (1996: 264) states that, in choosing to focus on E1 and E2, he is “trying to pose a serious difficulty for the theist by picking a difficult case of natural evil, E1 (Bambi), and a difficult case of moral evil, E2 (Sue).” Rowe, then, is attempting to state the evidential argument in the strongest possible terms. As one commentator has put it, “if these cases of evil [E1 and E2] are not evidence against theism, then none are” (Christlieb 1992: 47). However, Rowe’s almost exclusive preoccupation with these two instances of suffering must be placed within the context of his belief (as expressed in, e.g., 1979: 337-38) that even if we discovered that God could not have eliminated E1 and E2 without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse, it would still be unreasonable to believe this of all cases of horrendous evil occurring daily in our world. E1 and E2 are thus best viewed as representative of a particular class of evil which poses a specific problem for theistic belief. This problem is expressed by Rowe in the following way:

    (P) No good state of affairs we know of is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being’s permitting E1 or E2. Therefore,

    (Q) It is likely that no good state of affairs is such that an omnipotent, omniscient being’s obtaining it would morally justify that being in permitting E1 or E2.

    P states that no good we know of justifies God in permitting E1 and E2. From this it is inferred that Q is likely to be true, or that probably there are no goods which justify God in permitting E1 and E2. Q, of course, corresponds to the factual premise of Rowe’s argument. Thus, Rowe attempts to establish the truth of the factual premise by appealing to P.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Grave digger. Isn't he?

    Hi! Your not the GRAVEDIGGER Glad, he is. The next one UP. Or not.

    New Word: Gravedigger; someone who posts a lot of dirty words so that someone else's post gets buried. Grave digger. Reverse that. Not the guy that takes OUT the dirt, the other guy, the one who puts it back in. Is there a name for that?

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    My apologies N.drew It seems that I got confused and misunderstood your explanation of the race to the baptism(spelt the English way)Adham(spelt the Aguest way)Jah, justice, holding on to sin, war is against sin, surviving the end, the executioner, the sinner and the judge, rocket science and all that stuff or jazz as I like to call it.

    Gladiators are not known for being that bright you know.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit