An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    Just thought I'd cut and paste half an article as my entire response as well.

    Oh, before you theists say "but he could be allowing this evil for some greater good"

    (another half article from Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy... MY holy book)

    Let’s suppose that Rowe’s evidential argument from evil succeeds in providing strong evidence in support of the claim that there does not exist an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being. What follows from this? In particular, would a theist who finds its impossible to fault Rowe’s argument be obliged to give up her theism? Not necessarily, for at least two further options would be available to such a theist.

    Firstly, the theist may agree that Rowe’s argument provides some evidence against theism, but she may go on to argue that there is independent evidence in support of theism which outweighs the evidence against theism. In fact, if the theist thinks that the evidence in support of theism is quite strong, she may employ what Rowe (1979: 339) calls “the G.E. Moore shift” (compare Moore 1953: ch.6). This involves turning the opponent’s argument on its head, so that one begins by denying the very conclusion of the opponent’s argument. The theist’s counter-argument would then proceed as follows:

    (not-3)There exists an omnipotent, omniscient, wholly good being.
    (2)An omniscient, wholly good being would prevent the occurrence of any intense suffering it could, unless it could not do so without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.
    (not-1)(Therefore) It is not the case that there exist instances of horrendous evil which an omnipotent, omniscient being could have prevented without thereby losing some greater good or permitting some evil equally bad or worse.

    Although this strategy has been welcomed by many theists as an appropriate way of responding to evidential arguments from evil (e.g., Mavrodes 1970: 95-97, Evans 1982: 138-39, Davis 1987: 86-87, Basinger 1996: 100-103) – indeed, it is considered by Rowe to be “the theist’s best response” (1979: 339) – it is deeply problematic in a way that is often overlooked. The G.E. Moore shift, when employed by the theist, will be effective only if the grounds for accepting not-(3) [the existence of the theistic God] are more compelling than the grounds for accepting not-(1) [the existence of gratuitous evil]. The problem here is that the kind of evidence that is typically invoked by theists in order to substantiate the existence of God – e.g., the cosmological and design arguments, appeals to religious experience – does not even aim to establish the existence of a perfectly good being, or else, if it does have such an aim, it faces formidable difficulties in fulfilling it. But if this is so, then the theist may well be unable to offer any evidence at all in support of not-(3), or at least any evidence of a sufficiently strong or cogent nature in support of not-(3). The G.E. Moore shift, therefore, is not as straightforward a strategy as it initially seems.

    Secondly, the theist who accepts Rowe’s argument may claim that Rowe has only shown that one particular version of theism – rather than every version of theism – needs to be rejected. A process theist, for example, may agree with Rowe that there is no omnipotent being, but would add that God, properly understood, is not omnipotent, or that God’s power is not as unlimited as is usually thought (see, e.g., Griffin 1976, 1991). An even more radical approach would be to posit a “dark side” in God and thus deny that God is perfectly good. Theists who adopt this approach (e.g., Blumenthal 1993, Roth 2001) would also have no qualms with the conclusion of Rowe’s argument.

    There are at least two problems with this second strategy. Firstly, Rowe’s argument is only concerned with the God of orthodoxtheism as described in Section I.1 above, not the God of some other version of theism. And so objections drawn from non-orthodox forms of theism fail to engage with Rowe’s argument (although such objections may be useful in getting us to reconsider the traditional understanding of God). A second problem concerns the worship-worthiness of the sort of deity being proposed. For example, would someone who is not wholly good and capable of evil be fit to be the object of our worship, total devotion and unconditional commitment? Similarly, why place complete trust in a God who is not all-powerful and hence not in full control of the world? (To be sure, even orthodox theists will place limits on God’s power, and such limits on divine power may go some way towards explaining the presence of evil in the world. But if God’s power, or lack thereof, is offered as the solution to the problem of evil – so that the reason why God allows evil is because he doesn’t have the power to prevent it from coming into being – then we are faced with a highly impotent God who, insofar as he is aware of the limitations in his power, may be considered reckless for proceeding with creation.)

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    Personally I think I'd favour the second strategy above as it would also perhaps suggest an explanation for our own reckless streaks and would maybe even suggest that we go with it

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    Most people have the power to act out or refrain from acting out their ideas. It's called personality. This quote from the "holy" book of information is stupid because it denies The God a personality.

    @

    That was for another thread, but doesn't it apply? Maybe that's what Fred's afraid of. And I don't blame him. Let's give it another try....

    @ A process theist, for example, may agree with Rowe that there is no omnipotent being, but would add that God, properly understood, is not omnipotent, or that God’s power is not as unlimited as is usually thought (see, e.g., Griffin 1976, 1991). An even more radical approach would be to posit a “dark side” in God and thus deny that God is perfectly good. Theists who adopt this approach (e.g., Blumenthal 1993, Roth 2001) would also have no qualms with the conclusion of Rowe’s argument.
  • TheUbermensch
    TheUbermensch

    Well then a quote provided way back on the first pages of this thread.

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
    Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing?
    Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing?
    Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing?
    Then why call him God?"
    - Epicurus

    A person is justified in believing that X does not exist if

    (1) all the available evidence used to support the view that X exists is shown to be inadequate; and

    (2) X is the sort of entity that, if X exists, then there is a presumption that would be evidence adequate to support the view that X exists; and

    (3) this presumption has not been defeated although serious efforts have been made to do so; and

    (4) the area where evidence would appear, if there were any, has been comprehensively examined; and

    (5) there are no acceptable beneficial reasons to believe that X exists. (p. 283)

    I mean honestly if you accept the second strategy, why worship such a being? Why take part in praising his name? If he is not perfectly good, why love him? If he is not all powerful, then he definitely should not be worshipped as the most powerful being.

    My question to you soft+gentle is: If you can accept the second strategy, why worship him?

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    gladiator

    soft+gentle The quote in your post is indeed food for thought. If there were a God that intervened then we would lose our free will. I do realize that people starving in far away lands have already lost their free will and will in time loose their lives. Even so, once an all powerful being chooses to exercise its free will and make adjustments to our world it ceases to be our world.

    That makes sense as far as it goes. The difficulty is that accepting this as a reason is that believers will tell us that God has at times intervened. Adam & Eve, Noah's flood, miracles of Jesus and execution of undesirable nations such as Sodom and Gomorra. Even if we discount all these biblical accounts we are still left with the fact that Christians ask God to intervene in their lives when they are say ill or in danger. Sometimes they believe he has helped, sometimes he ignors the plea. I have no answer to the dilemma.

    Perhaps there is a God who goes around setting worlds in motion and moves off millions of light years away and only revisits every few thousand years? Or perhaps there is no such being?

    yes it is a dilemma and i don't have an answer either but I think it works (edit) some of the time.

  • soft+gentle
    soft+gentle

    same reply to you ubermensch (same as my reply to gladiator that is) and I also think N drew makes a good point - personality

  • Twitch
    Twitch
    Most people have the power to act out or refrain from acting out their ideas. It's called personality. This quote from the "holy" book of information is stupid because it denies The God a personality.

    People have personality. To say god has a personality is putting a human trait on a non-human concept. If god has such traits, who's to say he/she/it doesn't have or act out other human traits, such as jealousy, anger, pride, etc? And of course, how would you know?

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    And of course, how would you know?.... because Twitch is trying hard to argue something that doesn't exist (in his opinion). I agree with AGuest, it certainly is weird. Maybe I use to be one of you. That would explain it. OMGoodness, I mean like you. Peace!

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Adham (spelt the Aguest way)

    Ummmm... no, dear Glad (as always, peace to you!). Not "Shelby's" way, at all (and I think the word is "spelled", but I could be wrong). That actually is the original term. His name wasn't "Adham" - he WAS 'a·dham´... earthling man (i.e., whose blood is "hot" - and thus, he eats vegetation, requires sun, H20, sleep, etc.... vs. spirit man... whose blood, holy spirit, has no temperature... or physical requirements).

    Like my Lord in the flesh, Adham was a half-breed: spirit (life force/blood/breath) from God... flesh/blood from earthly mother. Hence, like my Lord in the flesh Adham had both kinds of "blood" in him. Because of the one, however (God's)... he could go in and out between the spirit and physical realms (as Christ did, some angels do). Thus, although he was created OUTSIDE the garden, he could be put INSIDE - and go BACK outside (as when he was expelled)... and could have gone back IN, had he not been prevented by the cherubs.

    Because we only have ONE kind of blood (right now)... we are confined to the physical realm... and enslaved in the physical vessel. We initially receive a "token" of the NEW body, however, the "white robe"... when we receive holy spirit. Throught that "blood" we can, to a certain degree, "transcend" the vessel of flesh (so as to hear, see, etc., that which is of the spirit. That is how I am able to do so). In the FUTURE, however, when we actually RECEIVE such "robes" (spirit bodies)... we, too, will be able to "go in and out" between the two realms: spirit and physical.

    The same Hebrew word used for "man", therefore, is the same Hebrew word used for "Adam". It is "adam" and so he was later CALLED "Adam" (from a term meaning "red blood"). But when he was CREATED... it was as EARTHLING (physical/terrestrial) "man"... and not spirit (celestial) "man." Hence, adham. Since that is the term my Lord uses when referring to him, I do so as well.

    Now, I realize that some of you believe you have grounds to take issues with the level of IQ/intellect you believe some believers have... or lack... and while I have nothing to brag about in either regard, I am one to do my research. Into what YOU say, religion says, and... when and where directed... what my Lord tells me (so that I can competently relate it... to those who have the CAPACITY to understand it, of course). While I do not personally speak Hebrew, Aramaic, or Latin... my Lord has been wonderful in sharing words in these languages, including their [multiple] meanings... and origin. Since I am an absolutely lover of etymology, it doesn't come all that difficult to me.

    I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA, who wants to thank every one of you non-believers for this extraordinary opportunity to share what I have. Truly, had you not asked what you have, accused as you have, contended as you did, and asserted what you did... there would have been no reason for me to do so. At least, not as much as I have. Since I have received a great deal of "thank yous" for doing so, I must pass on that gratitude to you. Because you prompted it and by doing so, others have greatly benefitted. Again, thank you!

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest S+G... peace to you and thank you, truly, for that excerpt. I find it sad that some could only take issue with its... ummmmm... origin (cut and paste)... but apparently completely missed its point. Their loss, of course.

    Dear N.drew... peace to you, as well... and WONDERFUL analogy (i.e., "gravedigger")! LOLOLOLOL! LOVED it!

    Dear, dear, dear tec... peace, my dear one... and you GO, my sister!

    As always, the greatest of love and peace to you... and your households... each one of you!

    YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit