Aguest, yes, very much like the coffee shop. It is good to have ideas mingle and clash, diverge and coalesce, agreement and contention for one's viewpoint and beliefs. Funny how the more familiar the person and/or the subject, the more passion one sees. It is a good thing to have disagreement, even conflict, for as in nature, only by interaction do things grow and change. And yes, there is a group sub current underneath it all, something tribal in essence, a commonality that all decent, sane people intrinsically know.
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences
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N.drew
The evidence is clear - no god is intervening to stop world suffering.
How are we believers to understand the cessation of suffering in us?
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Qcmbr
Ask AGuest about her shoulder.
Ask the Xians / Muslims / Bhuddists who are starving, being abused , dying from cancer or are emotionally torn apart by divorce or mental problems.
I suspect any cessation of pain is caused by the pain not actually being as severe as thought, the cause of the pain has receded, time has begun to allow your neurons to be reprogrammed or cleaned out naturally, your expectations are such you have begun to bias behaviours that either ignore, minimise or may actually remove the causes of the pain. Which answer will suffice. The least likely is that a supernatural being is reordering the cosmos for you.
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N.drew
No, I'm talking about mental pain. What to hope for. How to be happy alone. How to cope with injustice (the kind I come across personally). How to allay my fear. My fear is gone. Where did it go Qcmbr? Do you know where it is?
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OnTheWayOut
N. drew, don't panic, but I think you misplaced your towel. I always have more than one.
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N.drew
My towel?
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Qcmbr
Yes - you've focused your mind and your natural mechanism have kicked in. There are plenty of people who are not filled with fear who are equally not religious. Fear is not a spiritual condition but a physical one that is manifest as part of the fight or flight response. When you feel threatened your body releases chemicals , most famously adrenaline, which has a powerful effect across the body ( too much can send people into shock or over prolonged periods of excessive stress cause physical problems. ) One of the short term effects of these stress chemicals is to reduce your ability to lay down long term memories. Another interesting effect is to make it harder to think clearly as your brain shunts decision making to the more automatic centres of the brain allowing quicker reflexes at the cost of higher brain function like holding a complex conversation. These are all physical endowments of an evolutionary system that rewarded those who fought well or ran fast.
That you may have put yourself in a position whereby your stress levels have dropped and so you feel less fear is great - you could get something similar by joining a meditation group or a gym - but it is not a spiritual evidence for divinity.
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N.drew
Lololol!!! OK, why doesn't everybody's internal mechanism work for relief?
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Qcmbr
Because some people are illl, some people stress themselves too much or are exposed to stress too much ( often not realising it, stress can be from something as overt as physical assault through to staring at a pc screen too long .) and some people have over active physical systems that produce inappropriate responses ( like extreme blushing or too much adrenaline .) I used to suffer from hyper ventilation as a child, I would think about breathing and then I'd start to panic and I'd go all woozy and so the cycle would continue. I eventually went to a psychiatrist who sat down and explained how I physically could not stop myself breathing and how automated physical systems worked, he then proceeded to show me how I stressed myself by focusing so much on school work and grades that my body was expressing its burn out by hyperventilation. I never hyperventilated again. A miracle ? Nope just simple information that broke my mental 'tape' that I had been playing over and over again.
Joining a group - even a mental one - can have tremendous benefits as you feel unified, part of a greater picture and as if you have purpose where previously that was lacking. God belief is a tremendous heuristic for dealing with an infinitely complex world and many who feel overwhelmed by the choices presented / forced upon them do gain from having those choices collapsed by the confines of belief.
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AGuest
Since I have some more time on my hands (peace to you all!):
I think you guys need to go over this thread an see that: Either neither side is reading what the other is saying or neither side cares enough to understand.
I have to disagree, dear one (the greatest of love and peace to you!). I think some on both sides ARE reading what the other is saying... yet, still disagrees. I cannot say as to which side, if either, "cares"... but can only answer for myself: I absolutely do care. Truly. If you knew me (better) you would know that if I didn't, I wouldn't bother. I look into what the "other side" says... to the best of my ability. For me, it's things like the contents of this article (and the one it references)... as well as much of what the "other side" (as represented here) says and DOES... that makes ME dismiss putting FULL faith IN the "other side". Just as much as things in the Bible... and what many who profess to "believe" say and do... here and elsewhere... makes "them" dismiss THIS "side."
I know I am coming on a bit harsh but sorry, that's how I feel.
I don't find you harsh, not at all. I just see you as asserting your opinion... from your POV. I did question some of you POV ("No one"??) but there's absolutely nothing wrong with you STATING it.
Maybe because it's Friday and it's been a very long and painful week and maybe because of it my patience is not what it could be but what read here is quite simply:
Ooh, I am truly sorry for that (the long and "painful" week), dear one. I know how that "feels"... and how we can think/act as a result. No worries...
Believer: I believe this and this is why I believe it
SOUNDS simple, doesn't it? LOLOLOL!
Unbeleiver: Hogwash, what you beleive is delusioanl because I disgaree with your position and since I am right and rational, that makes you dilusional and ignorant.
Yeah, that's what I "hear", too... but "they" SAY that's not what they're saying. The problem, then, is the difference between what WE think they're saying... and what they're saying. And that works both ways: we're saying "I believe this and this is why I believe it..." but apparently, according to some, they're either hearing something else (what, I have no idea)... or not hearing that at all (but I can only conclude that it's because they don't WANT to... because they THINK they've already "heard it all." Yes, I know... they also say they've never heard THESE things... yet, have "heard it all", so...)...
Is there a point to all this since neither side is going to convince the other?
YES! Absolutely! I cannot speak for THEM... but for US, if we think that "we" and "they" are the ONLY ones observing/listening... we are really not much better off than they are. You profess to being a Bible reader. Have you not read, then, the prophecy in Malachi? This one:
"At that time those in fear of JaHVeH spoke with one another, each one with his companion, and JaHVeH kept paying attention and listening. And a book of remembrance began to be written up before him for those in fear of JaHVeH and for those thinking upon his name. 'And they will certainly become mine,' JaHVeH of Armies has said, 'at the day when I am producing a special property. And I will show compassion upon them, just as a man shows compassion upon his son who is serving him. And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him.” Malachi 3:16-18
[Note: The Hebrew word translated here (and in many other places) as "fear"... is a mistransliteration. The word is "yare" and in addition to fear, means... revere, stand in awe of, honor, respect... and things like these. Religion's attempt to CONTROL by fear, however, has resulted in "fear"... and/or related terms (terror, dread, afraid, etc.) being the common translations. They are errors. Serious errors. All one need do is look at Christ to see this truth, for what is there to fear with HIM? Nothing.]
Truly?
Yes, dear one... truly! There is saying I love: "Often times the SEARCH... proves more profitable than the GOAL." I think that applies here.
Again, peace to you... and may JAH bless!
YOUR servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,
SA