by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences
Have you ever heard a non believer say "Well, you know, those believers believe, so they must be wrong".
I can't speak for others, but I certainly have, dear Uber (again, peace to you!). MANY times. In fact, to SOME non-believers... simply believing IS the problem. In their eyes, it is wrong TO believe... regardless of what it is you believe IN. Trust me: there are a plethora of posts on this board that attest to that. All KINDS of "evidence".
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
LV101 - I hear and agree with everything you said in your last post. I understand.
Shelby (and PSac)... I love the coffee shop analogy. I have been down about this thread for the past week, for the same reason that Psac sounds to be down. But that analogy really lifted my spirits! It gives us all a common ground and connection, and even respect/compassion. I loved it, so thank you.
Just got home from work, so I'm going to read through some things and perhaps come back. Q sounded as though he might need someone to respond to him ;)
Peace,
Tammy
I suspect that it would be socially nigh on impossible for many of the extreme believers to retract their words and publically admit to being gullible and believing in fairytales. The reverse cannot be said about non-believers since they are not proposing a faith position but an evidence position. Unlike the believer who is anchored to a concept , non- believers are more readily able to see a new perspective as new facts are presented.
Without going into my "usual", can I just say that I vehemently disagree with you here, dear Q (again, peace to you!) and I think the "evidence" proves you wrong. There are MANY former "extreme believers" (even some on the board) who not only retract their words... but publicly... and embrance atheism. Indeed, I think that would account for the lion's share of atheists on this very board. In the same vein, there are non-believers who, for whatever reason, retract THEIR words and position... and claim/reclaim faith. The first change their position (from belief to non-belief) because of a "lack of evidence." Contrastly, the latter change THEIR position (from non-belief to belief) BECAUSE of... wait for it... evidence.
True, that evidence may have been revealed solely to them (or perhaps a few others) BUT... it was "enough." Enough to make them "retract their [previous] words, beliefs, disbeliefs, assertions, contentions, etc., and often PUBLICLY admit that they DO believe. Not in fairytales... but in someone and something VERY real... to THEM.
Your statement, however, shows ME just HOW one-sided YOUR thinking truly is (and I really had no idea... until now). What you CAN'T see is evident... by your position here. Because it truly is a very false premise... on all sides.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Since Shelby responded so adeptly to the first part (far better than I would have), I will try and address just the rest.
If any believer is confronted by something tangible that is against their belief ( a daily occurance ) ,
If I am confronted by something 'tangible' (depends on what you consider tangible), then I will consider it, reflect on it, pray about it, evaluate it, research it... and change the way I view things if the evidence points to that. This does not happen often, and nothing has threatened my faith in God or Christ... ecept once. That was all those Zeitgeist claims. I was afraid when I heard those... but I did the research, and found those claims to be false and completely without merit. Then I was annoyed with myself for doubting what I knew I had no need to doubt.
I have been shown (and given) greater understanding since then. But at the time, I had to confront what people were telling me and see what was up with that. I didn't like it. But I did it.
That is the crux of the frustration here ,that non-believers will change their viewpoint when presented with credible facts whereas believers will simply reject any facts that run counter to their worldview and present a preferred made up story and get all offended when it gets pointed out how deceitful that is. When facts are rejected for fallacies then the conversation has veered into the crazy.
Can't speak for all 'believers' (though you seem to think that you can), but I don't reject any facts. Please point them out if you can think of any.
It's bloody annoying however talking to other people who want you to give up all that hard earned realisation that only facts and reality count in a material world and stonewall based upon you having to accede to a magic world, they will not give you the time of day unless you first accept that magic exist and as long as you do that it's back slaps all around and lets just unzip imagination and disregard anything real that doesn't jive with the pretty stories. Dawkins is right not to debate those who privilege the storybook world over the scientific.
Um... the very fact that this thread is more than 40 pages should tell you that you ARE being given the time of day.
You want a backslap for an athiest from a theist? - I've got one for Gladiator, who actually respects my right and choice to believe (instead of just giving lip service), and even respects me despite not agreeing with what I believe. I have another one for LeavingWT - who helped show me that not all atheists ( or agnostics with atheistic tendencies ;)... are uncaring of the rest of the world that has no direct connection to them, rude and/or condescending to all believers, who think 'culling the herd' so to speak should be allowed (let the weak, the old, the infirm, the starving to die because the world is overcrowded as it is). SBC is another. CJ too with a little effort (ie, time of day), lol! Even EP... with a lot of effort and time of day, though once you have his friendship, I think its there forever, no matter what. There are many more on here that I am forgetting. I TOTALLY changed my opinion about how an atheist COULD be because of some of the non-theists here. My personal eperiences had shown otherwise. (granted, it helps that I know I have a limited perspective of the world, and its people)
It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe, but rather how you think of and treat others... especially those who disagree with you.
You might well be a great and loving father, husband, son, brother, etc... giving to those who need, caring about people, etc. You obviously have many on here who respect the logic they find in what you have to say. I understand that you are trying to help people not get caught in the same trap that you were, and free some who are. Backslaps and respect and love and understanding for all of that. Just not for how you generalize and condescend toward anyone who is a believer. Not that you need a backslap from me or anyone else. But you brought it up... that no believer will give a non-believer the time of day or a backslap. Just wanted to show you that this is a false thinking.
Peace to you,
Tammy
Interesting discussion. As a former Witness, I can fully appreciate that " a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing." But there are many things learned that make sense. The greater issue of univeral sovereignty takes precedent over our personal issues. Believing that God will, in his time, correct these things is not unreasonable. To believe otherwise leaves us at the beginning of this thread.
And so, okay, now to you, dear Twitch (I think you "deserve" a "greatest of love and peace to you" at this point - LOLOLOL!):
Do all christians believe the bible is not the word of god?
All christians, yes, sooner or later. They have to. Because it is only by means OF the Word of God... that they BECOME christians (i.e., "chosen persons"). Some who PROFESS to be "christians" don't believe this. But professing to be doesn't MAKE a christian. No one can choose themselves, and so just because someone SAYS "I believe in 'Jesus/Christ'" doesn't make them a christian. It makes them a DISCIPLE of Christ (and so, perhaps a "called" one)... but not a CHOSEN one of Christ (and "few are chosen").
Otherwise, it would seem a grave misunderstanding that's been going on for near two millenia then, no?
Yes. But that's surprising... why? How long did Israel, as a nation, "misunderstand"? (To calculate, you would have to start at Sinai... then count up to Christ... and then count to today)...
We should believe people's interpretations of god and not the bible itself as the word of god. Is this correct?
Nope, not correct. We should believe the interpretations of God's WORD... Christ... and not the Bible. Just as that Word SAID (which is recorded in the Bible, which you can look up in case you can't/don't hear him say it to YOU):
"You are searching the scriptures because you THINK that by means of THEM you will have everlasting life. And these are the very ones that bear witness about ME. Yet, you do not want to come to ME that you may have everlasting life." John 5:39, 40
The Bible does not say come to IT. It does not say that IT became flesh and resided among men. It does not say that IT was with God. It does not say that IT was given the name, "The Word of God." It DOES say that God's people are to be sanctified by means of His truth... and that His Word is truth. In that light, it SAYS that CHRIST... is the Word... and that CHRIST... is the truth... and that CHRIST... sanctifies us with HIS blood (not the Bible, the pages of the Bible or what's in the pages). It say that is we know the TRUTH, that truth will set us free. It does NOT say, however, that the Bible will set us free - it says "if the SON sets you free." Because the SON... is the truth. And the Word. Nothing... and no one else fills these roles or descriptions. Not even the Bible. See?
We can understand the son of god completely but not god.
Yes. This is conundrum for those who thing the Son IS God. But Paul explained when he said that no one could know the mind of God, except the Son, but that WE could know the mind of the Son (Christ).
Also, we can trust the bible to understand jesus but not god since it's not the word of god but that of jesus then. Fair assessment?
No, as to both. First, it is not the word of Christ, either. It CONTAINS some things that came directly from God and/or Christ... but it also contains a lot that DIDN'T - the word(s) of man. Second, we CAN'T trust the Bible to under Christ (sorry, but I can't call him "Jesus," dear one)... because (1) the Bible has been tampered with, (2) he is not IN the Bible, per se, and (3) the Bible contains only PARTS of information about him. The BEST way... is to go to HIM. Move PAST walking by sight (i.e., what you see/read with your eyes)... and start walking by FAITH (so that, THROUGH faith, you can hear HIM, himself!). Because HE can tell you about himself better than any book written by other parties can. Yes?
Third, if we can't fully understand Christ... how can we even REMOTELY understand God? Because HE (Christ) is the One who SHOWS us God - HE is the image and representation. Not the Bible.
You're saying that some need the bible as they don't have "fully complete" faith then?
Yep! Me, too, at one time! It was my Lord himself to told me... and SHOWED me... that I didn't, but only needed to have faith in HIM. What a RELEASE!!!
Is the bible a kind of "God For Dummies" book then, since it's not the true word of god and is not actually needed by someone who has learned to walk by faith?
You know, you COULD call it that, yes! Only difference is that one can read the usual "For Dummies" and get a real sense of how something works/is done (well, except maybe Adobe, Sequel, Photoshop, ProTools, and other like applications - LOLOL! Ain't no summarizing that stuff! LOLOL! WAY too many "holes" left, that way!)
We may be converging on an agreement here if so, lol
We just may! If so... PROGRESS, my dear! WHOO-HOOOO!
I question in order to break it down and understand
I totally understand that. I do the same as to things of "science". Unfortunately, many here question my sincerity and motive and so turn it into a spectacle, sometimes even a fiasco. But it is how I learn sometimes. So, I understand... and respect... what you're saying.
for much of what you say is unorthodox and foreign to me.
It was unorthodox and foreign to me, too, dear one, truly. But I learned very early that it IS... because who PURPORT to "know"... DON'T. They haven't a CLUE! Why? Because... they "search the scriptures"... and rely on their own/others' interpretations of it... rather than going to the Word himself. Then they take what they THINK is "true" (or want others to believe is true so that they can control them)... and push it AS "truth". Some even call themselves or say they "have" the "truth." Christ is the truth, though, so that title CANNOT apply to anyone else. Nor can they "have" HIM - he is not a possession, so to speak.
If it's any consolation, I also question my own beliefs just as much and have since I was able to reason enough to do so.
I understand...
Of course, my beliefs are different from yours and I suspect that much like yourself, I feel the need to espouse mine and challenge others to see what stands up to reason and what is "right" (for me at least).
While I understand what you're saying and your comparison, please forgive (as I am not trying to contend), but it truly is NOT my desire to "challenge". Anyone... as to ANYTHING. I can only put it out there, dear one. Because it is the truth. If one listens and gets it, great. If one doesn't... great. I am not trying to change/convert ANYONE - I don't have that power or authority! I cannot CHOOSE anyone. I can only speak the truth and tell that one... SEEK, ASK, KNOCK... FOR YOURSELF... so that it (he, the Door) can be "opened" to YOU.
Now, if someone states a LIE... or an inaccuracy... regarding that One... and/or His Father... I can't help it: the spirit that is IN me COMPELS me to speak the truth and set the matter accurate. It is not ME - it is the spirit that is IN me... holy spirit... by which I hear and then share the things I do!
I realize that this may SEEM unorthodox, but truly it isn't. It only SEEMS that way because others who have made the same claims have often been found to be false christ, false prophets, imposters. I GET that. Which is why a keep an eye on ME... and no one else; so that I don't succumb to the same temptations and enticements (glory, popularity, fame, fortune, etc.) as others have. I take GREAT care... which is why I share HERE, where my Lord SENT me. I am GRATEFUL that he didn't send me to the world in general - because I can't say that I am any stronger than any others and wouldn't be enticed BY the world. People LOVE to be led (misled, actually)... to have others think FOR them. They always want someone to tell them, lead them, and ultimately be responsible and accountable for them.
That is NOT for me. I am just a servant and I rather like my position down here at the "lowly" end of the table. I don't want or need people looking to ME. I am "someone" at work and at home. I don't NEED to be ANYONE... with Christ... except his slave... and his people's servant. I am grateful enough, I promise you, for that [very] small privilege.
Also, like you I endeavor to help others of like mind to take what is discussed and draw their own conclusions. Perhaps this isn't about you or I at all in the bigger picture.
I cannot answer as to you, but it certainly isn't about ME. Not at ALL! I get how some find that hard to believe... but I would say that that's on them. But trust me, if it were about ME... I wouldn't take a fraction of what I "receive" from folks here. Seriously, love, I grew up in the 'hood... and you just don't let folks talk to any old way. But my Lord is teaching me love, peace, kindness, mildness... and... long-suffering. Which isn't all that hard because, it's NOT about me - it's about HIM. And if HE doesn't hastily take offense, how can I? Who am I do to so in his stead?
However, it matters not to me if you or they agree or not with either me or you, everyone has a right to believe as they wish. So on that we do agree.
Good! That is wonderful! I am SO glad we have reached this point, if none other!
this was rhetorical and wasn't specifically asking you anything.
Oh, my apologies for misunderstanding!
But you believe in god, why not ask you about the subject of it?
I totally understand that - but why ask me... if you've already made up your mind that my "answers" are false? Or that I'm "crazy"? Why in the world would anyone ask someone they think is crazy, delusional, etc., ANYTHING on the subject of God, Christ, the Bible, spirituality, or any even remotely related? My thinking is that, while you may SAY these things, your very asking belies that you TRULY think this. Which is why I respond - I know you folks don't think I'm crazy... but simply haven't been able to reconcile... yet... WHAT I "am." Or those who think/believe as I do.
We, though, don't think YOU'RE crazy... but maybe misled. A little "delusional" perhaps, but not in a serioual, clinical way. More in the way that what some of you ASK... makes absolutely NO sense... when put up against what you say you BELIEVE (or don't believe)... or the questions you ask although they've already been answered (and you can't grasp/accept the answer)... then say WE'RE the ones who are deluded. But we mean no malice or harm by it... unlike some of "you." Surely, you can see that, yes?
Other beliefs account for and even accept other concepts of god. Does yours? If not, why?
Of "god", yes, absolutely. I mean, there are MANY gods... both true and false. As to the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... who is the Most HIGH God... while I realize there ARE other "concepts"... I cannot deny that they are false. I mean, what's the point in serving Him if you don't have the cahones to stand up and tell the truth ABOUT Him? Sure, many may disagree... but so what? They're entitled. I am not going to judge them, condemn them to everlasting Hell, fire, death, destruction, etc. I am going to [try and] move on. They don't belong to me. If they come back, though, and say, "Wait, okay, tell me again what you believe?" I'm not going to say, "Oh, no, uh-uh... you had your chance. Too late." My Lord is not that way... and since I want to be as much like him as I can't, I can't be that way.
But just like HE didn't go all ape-snakey when people didn't believe HIM... even when some STOPPED believing him... but kept moving forward... I just keep moving forward. And like him... who will go BACK, indeed, leave the 99 to go find the one... I am trying not to leave "you" behind. I sometimes fail at that... going back for the one... because there are a lot of "ones"... and I am just not my Lord. I am SO not my Lord... and so, unfortunately, I probably have left one or two... or ten... behind. May he... and they... forgive me.
If belief, faith and knowledge of god does not rely on a book but on personal experience, why is one person's experience any more or less valid than another's?
Dear one... look at me... and, say, dear tec... and, say, dear PSacto... and, say, dear N.drew. And others, like W'Sprout, Inkie, CoffeeBlack, S+G, kes152, Voices, FinalCall, JustMom... to name a few (there are many others here, but you get the point). We all have DIFFERENT personal experiences. ALL of us. Why? Because the Body is not made up of just one member: there are MANY members... and they are set in the Body just as GOD sets them. We don't set ourselves (well, some try and must be "adjusted"... but that's another thread).
My point is that one's EXPERIENCE is NOT any more or less valid than another's. UNLESS... that "experience" has nothing to do with Christ (but put on him). For example, someone has an "experience" that says "That child is evil and YOU must kill him." No Christ "in" that, dear one. Why? Because Christ CALLS children, not kills them! Which is how WE know that accounts in the Bible where little kids are killed for simple things like making fun of a prophet... MUST BE FALSE. So, why is it IN there? To raise FEAR... by men... FALSE PROPHETS... so that they can control people! ("I'm/we're a prophet(s) and so you MUST listen to US... or THIS will happen to YOU!"). It's bull-pucky!
How do you KNOW? Many didn't listen to Christ. Many ridiculed him. Many accosted him. Some... even killed him. What "evil" did HE call down upon such ones? Which of these did HE kill? None. He FORGAVE them! If "a slave is NOT greater than his master," and he is the MASTER of even the Prophets... how could a TRUE prophet have done something HE wouldn't have done? How could a TRUE prophet TRULY have called down evil on some kids for "persecuting" him... when Christ didn't even do so against those who KILLED him?
Perspective is very important, dear one. If you WANT to see God as evil... you WILL. Because man has given you the TOOLS to do so. If, however, you want to see the LOVE that God IS... look... to... Christ. Do not look to the left... do not look to the right. Keep YOUR face... toward the COVER (Propitiatory)!
Again, I don't insist that others believe what I say to be true. My opinion on truth as regards belief has always been that it's subjective and thus cannot be "insisted" on.
I am glad to know that, truly, and THANK you for trying to make it clear to ME!
There is no "absolute truth" that all agree on which is a fact in the world, is it not?
That all agree on... no, there is not.
In fact, I've never been a supporter of one absolute "truth", unlike yourself. Have you considered your own bias towards "us" perhaps?
Truly, dear one, I have no bias toward "you". If I did, I would propound questions to you in the same manner as "you" propound to us... and then utterly reject your answers. I would play those kinds of games with you... because I was biased and so it wouldn't really matter to me WHAT you think/believe... but I would already disagree with it. When I DO ask questions (which is rare, I admit)... it is because I truly DO want to understand. Sometimes what you think; sometimes WHY you think it; sometimes HOW you think it. But NEVER to change your thinking - again, that is not UP to me, not at all! I cannot "draw" you... and you certainly can't go "through" ME.
I and other skeptics/atheists here continually provide evidence of what we don't believe, of this I'm sure you're aware.
Forgive me, but I don't understand this statement: you "continually provide evidence of what [you] DON'T believe." Can you clarify, please? Because, for ME, evolution, for example, is an attempt to provide evidence for what you DO believe - that all life evolved. Yes? But you don't, say, believe in God. And I can see where your assertions may be offered as "evidence" that you don't so believe. But I'm not sure if that's what you're saying. If so... how are your assertions [that you DON'T believe] any different than OUR assertions [that we DO believe]... such that they above ridicule while ours are deserving of it?
Whether or not you like or choose to accept the answers we provide is not on "us" ;)
And how is it that this statement is appropo for YOUR "evidence" but not for ours? Particularly when it's "YOU" who are propounding the questions and ask "US"? You don't have to agree or even LIKE our responses... but to take issue with them as you do... makes no sense to me. Don't like? Don't agree? Don't ask. Yes?
As for the question that still stands though, it seems quite simple really. You claim there is a god. Others make the same claim. The question is not burden of proof for god but rather what determines whether a god is real or fake.
I disagree. In my mind, that's an entirely DIFFERENT question from what was asked. You dear folks asked "A, B, or C?"... and some of us replied, "Actually, D." Because the answer was not included in the choices. NOW, you're saying the question really was "G?" If you want to know the answer to "G"... then that's the question that should have been propounded to begin with. Now, I understand that it came up later in thread, but I responded to that with the truth: no matter what "we" respond "you" will reject it... so why don't "YOU" tell "US"... what, in YOUR opinion... determines it.
What determines a true god from a false one. What determines what or why the christian god is superior to others.
If you don't mind, I would like to come back to this one in a bit, in a different post (on this thread, yes). But it's taking THIS discussion (between you and I) in a different direction... and, well, it's already a long thread (and hubby just walked in and I promised him a T-bone, which is about done marinatin', so...).
As for burden of proof on proving something doesn't exist, that is of course a logical fallacy, so it is right that a question involving belief in god rests on believers.
Again, I must disagree. Scientists set out all the time to prove something doesn't exist. Why is this different? It's a cop out, is what it is: "We don't have to answer YOUR question; YOU have to answer OURS." Even though "you" started with the questioning. Do you SEE the hypocrisy in that?
I'm not the one who proposes belief in something that most do not see or hear and that which should be universal and clearly understood yet remains the most divisive and contended belief since time began.
And I'm not the one who came to YOU and said "Why do YOU disbelieve in God?" I leave you to your disbelief. If, though, I DID come to you and DEMAND a reason for you for your LACK of faith... it WOULD be upon me, wouldn't it... to show you why I believe (and perhaps why you should, as well). Same premise here: you're demanding of ME. I don't OWE you ANYTHING, though... except love. Certainly not an explanation. I can choose to GIVE you one, yes, just as I can choose not to. If there is a burden, then, beyond love... it's on you, not me.
I say god is subjective, you say it is absolute. Of course such absolute claims would be contested and I see no hypocrisy in asking questions and putting it to the test.
I know you don't... and I mean absolutely NO offense here, truly. But people usually don't see their hypocrisy. That's why... and how... it exists, dear one.
I ask a straightforward and simple question which you song and dance around and point some kinda finger at me. Your avoidance of answering the question and the subversion of it is all too apparent.
Sigh... tell me, please, that this wonderful discussion isn't "deteriorating". I didn't song and dance, dear one (that's Jer's thing). I said (and I emphasize) that no matter what we responded you would reject it, so why don't you tell US? But, again, I will respond... since you insist... but not in this post. Let me finish here... get hubby's dinner out... and then I'll get to it. How's that? Now, it may have to wait through the weekend (depending on when I get done here and dinner out... and it's Friday night... and the weekend usually belong's to hubby, so... But if I can impose upon your patience, we can resolve that matter, too!).
You haven't given an answer at all and assume what my reaction will be. Doesn't seem fair does it?
I think "fair" would have been for YOU to day, "Okay, so be it, I'll go first. Here's what I believe determines..." Or, better yet, "No, seriously, I want to know what you think, so no fear - post away and I'll consider what you offer. Keep in mind I just may NOT agree with it, as you say, but I haven't already made up my mind so, please, let's hear it." Either of those would, IMHO, have been "fair." But, again, I don't think like a lot of folks do, so...
Seems a fair question to ask a believer what determines if a god is fake or not.
Just as fair to ask a non-believer... yes? Or no? If no, why not?
Seems fairer still to apply it to all beliefs on god and see what answers are given.
And disbeliefs... and see what answers are given there, too. Yes?
Perhaps a truth can be found there somewhere.
I think so. But I don't think it's "fair" for you to demand a response to a question from me... that you are unwilling to address yourself. The Big "H" word may apply, dear one...
However, choosing to avoid the question still says something doesn't it?
It does. So... what does it say about YOU?
Gotta get Poppa's dinner on, dear one... but I'll be back and we can continue this, if you are still desirable. In the meantime...
Peace to you... and yours!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Okay, dear Twitch (again, peace to you!)... I'm back and ready to respond to:
What determines a true god from a false one.
This was a very good and valid question, dear one... and deserved the truth as a response. In order to make sure that I shared the TRUTH about it with you, I went to my Lord and asked. Here is what he explained to me (about 10 minutes ago):
Virtually every false god out there has had some kind of image made of it. By man. They must make these images in order to make their gods "real". Yet, while these may have mouths, they can't speak. They may have eyes, but they can't see. They may have ears, but they can't hear. Noses, but can't smell. Hands... but can't feel... feet... but cannot walk. No sound comes from their throats. Why? Because like these images... the gods they represent are not ALIVE. There is no life... IN them. And so, they cannot GRANT life. Thus, they are false.
In contrast, the image of a TRUE god... would be alive. And in the case of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... HIS image... Christ, His WORD... IS alive. He can and DOES speak... can and DOES see... can and DOES hear... can and DOES smell... feel... and walk. He did... and does. All of these. Even now. Because he is the LIVING image... of the LIVING God. And HE... can grant life!
Thus... LIFE... and the ability to grant it... is what determines a true god from a false one. And it determines the True God... from all false ones. Because just as HIS image, Christ, is the Life... He is the Source of that Life. Life... comes FROM life.
What determines what or why the christian god is superior to others.
If you are speaking of those who CALL themselves "christians"... but are not... I am to direct you to look at THEIR "images" - the cross, statues of Christ in various forms/poses, including on the cross, Mary... with and without [baby] "Jesus", etc., and ask you... which of these images are alive... and so which one is "superior" to any other god-images that man has created?
If, however, you are speaking of those who ARE christians... the answer is because they have no image... but Christ. Now, of course, you will probably wonder where does that leave Muslims, who teach that no images are to be made as to "Allah." To that, I am to respond by directing you back to my earlier posts about "Allah"... and who that actually is... and my comment as to how their form of worship is actually purer than that of "christians." They, too, have deviated, yes, but not in this.
And that's what I was directed to share with you, dear one. I hope it helps and, as always, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
As an extremist, AG , what would make you change your mind and retract your words ?
Who else do you know, who has held strong religious views and posted them here who has retracted their words? I wasn't aware of many and most extremists I've ever read normally just stop posting and go silent for long periods or never come back once they've been through the critical wringer here.
Tec - confronted by evidence against your god I have not seen any movement towards a skeptical thought process from your original position and in fact I'd say youve moved to a more extreme faith position under the tutelage of AG. Please feel free to point out faith positions you have changed due to facts.
I am still interested in what sizemik has to say because the rebuttal does sound quite logical to me and he has asked for logic.
Here's the logical problem with free will . . .
For humans to truly have free will (ie; to be 100% self-determined in their action) . . . requires 100% unpredictability. Any form of predictability of action means that true free will is not being exercised, that is, that the action involved is predictable owing to some kind of behavioural parameter which can be determined in advance . . . therfore it is not the exercise of 100% free will. The unpredicatability of human action would render God as neither omniscient (all knowing) or omnipotent (all -powerful [in this case unable to prevent evil]) . . . end of story.
If God is omniscient, he is able to determine how man will use free will in advance . . . so it is not free will. His actions are only choice in his own eyes . . . to God they are predictable. Free will and divine omniscience are logically incompatible. If God is omniscient he must by definition, be aware not just that evil can be the result, but will be the result, because it is a parameter determined in advance. Therefore evil is by design.
It is illogical to expect God to remove evil. It's very presence precludes the existence of an all-powerful, all-knowing, perfectly moral God. To remove evil is to remove free will under that argument. Free will is a logical fallacy when used as an argument for the presence of evil.
The problem with Platingas "truncated" argument is that he wants it to prove one thing but at the same time not prove another. You can't have it both ways. There's nothing logical about his argument at all IMO.
It is illogical to expect God to remove evil
You have to wonder how evil even came about in the first place if God is perfect...surely EVERYTHING he made should be perfect...how did it all go so wrong?
Even if free will was given to ALL the angels....and to all the people...where did gods perfection fail?
How could something perfect make something imperfect???
