An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

unshackled

Tammy: I tend to think of you more as an agnostic with a lean toward theism

Just a hunch, but I doubt size would lean toward theism, perhaps deism or Spinoza's god? Which raises an interesting question in regards to the OP. Can deism be a reasonable position to take on reconciling evil/suffering? How about pandeism?

deism: the universe is the product of an all-powerful creator, but does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe.
pandeism: the creator of the universe actually became the Universe, and so ceased to exist as a separate and conscious entity.

Side question, for those who have a better understanding, would Spinoza's God fit the pandeist or pantheist description?
AGuest

Greetings to you all... and may you ALL have peace! I would like to respond to some comments, if I may - thank you!
As an extremist, AG , what would make you change your mind and retract your words ?
First, I am not an extremist, dear Q (peace to you!), not at all. For one, extremists don't believe in mercy - EVERYTHING is either their way... or the highway. For another, for that to apply to me I would have to ascribe to the belief that I COULD totally judge you, put YOU [back] under law, tell YOU what you should believe... "or else"... and things like these. That aside, however, I am going to have to say that that question has been already asked... and answered by me... on this thread. I just can't keep giving in to this rehashing of issues already responded to. Please... review the thread, dear one. Otherwise, we may NEVER get to a conclusion of it.
Who else do you know, who has held strong religious views and posted them here who has retracted their words?
It would actually be easier for you/I to do a separate post and just ask such ones to comment for themselves than for me to try and remember who, specifically, has done so over... what, more than 10 years? Someone actually did recently (though I can't recall who)... even thanking some of you for HELPING with that change... which, IMHO... is a kind of retraction (at least, his words seemed to indicate so). So...
I wasn't aware of many and most extremists I've ever read normally just stop posting and go silent for long periods or never come back once they've been through the critical wringer here.
Yes, I understand. I didn't understand, though, that the answer required there to BE many. In that light, how many is "many"?
For humans to truly have free will (ie; to be 100% self-determined in their action) . . . requires 100% unpredictability.
I have to agree with dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!) on this, dear Size (peace to you, as well!). I think any parent (well, certainly most mothers) would agree with her, as well.
Any form of predictability of action means that true free will is not being exercised, that is, that the action involved is predictable owing to some kind of behavioural parameter which can be determined in advance . . . therfore it is not the exercise of 100% free will.
I have to disagree, here: I can give you free will to choose... and yet, know HOW... YOU will choose... because... I know YOU. How so? Because, free will aside, most of us are driven by habit. It is HABIT that dictates predictability, dear one, not suppression of free will. I mean, that's "science", isn't it? Odds? Now, of course, I COULD "predict" wrongly... but it's highly unlikely... and I'm just human.
The unpredicatability of human action would render God as neither omniscient (all knowing) or omnipotent (all -powerful [in this case unable to prevent evil]) . . . end of story.
Again, I must disagree: because human action is NOT unpredictable... even WITH free will. To the contrary, we are QUITE predictable... in SPITE of free will. Free will allows us to CIRCUMVENT predictability. It gives us the ability to NOT "do" the "wrong" thing... which most would choose most of the time. Like young children do.
If God is omniscient, he is able to determine how man will use free will in advance . . .
First, you've never heard ME credit Him so ("omniscient"). Even so, He is able NOT because of any omniscience but, again, OUR habits and track records (did you know that there was a man, an investigative journalist, I believe, named Langer... who accurately predicted Hitler's progress, accomplishments, and ultimate demise? He did so by looking into Hitler's childhood... which was very "telling" as to his (Hitler's) outcomes). Rare is the parent, then (or perhaps blind due to love, if not idiotic) that is "surprised" when an unruly child turns into an unruly teenager... and then an unruly adult. Those who say, "I never saw it/this coming!"... weren't paying attention to the things they should have been... or kept excusing them away... or were in denial (because of their own shame, chagrin... or fear).
so it is not free will. His actions are only choice in his own eyes . . . to God they are predictable.
I think I must refer you to what makes us predicatable, above...
Free will and divine omniscience are logically incompatible.
Again, I disagree... based on, for example, dear tec's example. I give my teen total freedom... by leaving them alone at home while I take off for the weekend. I can tell them "Don't have a party in my house because there could be trouble." I believe I can say, as to MY children, that had I done this I could be 100% sure they WOULD NOT have had a party. I KNOW I wouldn't have even had to give such a warning... because they knew ME... and so knew better than to even try it. I also know that there are other parents who KNOW... that THEIR child is the "kind" that WOULD have a party... in SPITE of the warning... and potential consequences.
If God is omniscient he must by definition, be aware not just that evil can be the result, but will be the result, because it is a parameter determined in advance. Therefore evil is by design.
That is man's reasoning, not God's. Yes, He knew/knows that evil CAN result... because evil EXISTS. He can also HOPE... that we will prove the one who says we WILL choose evil... ALWAYS... wrong. He can also know that while some of WILL so prove that one wrong... others of us, maybe even MORE of us... WILL prove him right. But... so what? That is the risk you take when you GRANT free will... is it not? As any parent does when they give their own kids the freedom... to CHOOSE?
You have to wonder how evil even came about in the first place if God is perfect...surely EVERYTHING he made should be perfect...how did it all go so wrong?
Evil... death... did not exist in this realm, dear ST (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). Adham granted it entry. He was the "door" for it. It did exist in the spirit realm; however, it (he) has no negative effect in that realm - it/he is benign. It is only in THIS realm, the physical, that it/his effect is "negative."
Even if free will was given to ALL the angels....and to all the people...where did gods perfection fail? How could something perfect make something imperfect???
If something IS perfect... it can MAKE anything... even evil, yes? It can also DO "evil". What STOPS it? Choice. CHOOSING not to.
My personal conclusion is, at present is, that whatever universal awareness exists, it has not yet been explained by major religions or Holy books.
I absolutely agree, dear Glad (peace to you, as well!). I mean, have I not been saying that all along? For many years, now?
If a God, or his Son, is able to personal talk to humans then they would be personal responsible for the well being of humans.
Why is that? No, seriously... I am asking: why does someone's ability to talk to another make that one personally responsible for the other? You are able to speak to, say, your neighbor. Your brother. A stranger. Even an enemy. Are you responsible for them? My answer would be yes, you are... UNLESS that one makes it plain and clear to you that they don't WANT you to be... and so REJECT your efforts. At some point, your wish (for peace, etc.) must come back to you... so as to be offered to one who, even if they don't necessarily WANT it... will at least receive it.
Same thing... with the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, and His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One (MischaJah).
That would take away free will and be contrary to how life on earth operates.
But life on earth isn't "operating" PROPERLY, dear one! It's not about changing God and His ways to conform to OUR ways... but changing OURS to conform with HIS. And He's not making anyone do this - He is simply saying IF you do... then your suffering WILL come to an end. All of you... ANY of you. WE say, "No, we want to do it OUR way!" And so, HE says... "Well, then, okay... do it your way... but don't cry to me WHEN it doesn't work out. It's your way - live with it. IF, however, you don't WANT it to keep turning out as it does... then you really have to condescend to do it my way... because that really IS the only way it will work the way YOU really WANT it to! But, go ahead... do "your" thing. I'm here whenever you get tired of that... or realize it can't and won't work" (like dear Uber - peace to you! - suggested: that we CAN'T do it. We can't NOT because we're unable... but because it would take ALL of us... and ALL of us will NEVER be onboard)...
I can contemplate the idea that an impersonal, impassive awareness exists that is not responsible for suffering or accountable to humans.
You have the last part of that right: not responsible for suffering and certainly not accountable to humans. Your first part is an error, however: the Most Holy One of Israel is not impersonal and certainly not impassive. He is VERY much aware... AND CONCERNED... about us (mankind). So much so that He gave HIS Son... to help us find our way BACK to Him. Some of us will hear the call... and "go." Others of us will hear it... but beg off. Some will hear it... but due to a rebellious and wicked heart... which prompts them to seek they OWN glory... will misuse it to mislead their fellowman AWAY from Him... and toward themselves.
Others won't hear it, though... because either (1) they don't believe He calls but is silent; (2) they don't believe He would call THEM (because the false christs/prophets have told them this); or (3)... they don't believe He even exists so as TO call... anyone, let alone them.
We as humans could therefore not be held accountable to such a being.
Oh, contrare, dear one. Just because we choose to THINK we're not accountable doesn't negate that accountability. A child may think, because their parents are not "like" how they would like them to be, that they are not accountable to such parents. We've heard the horror stories of such children... some even murdering their own parents. Or those who, say, have no respect for teachers, principal, learning, education at all. In both instances, while it may SEEM... for the time being... that there is no accountability... sooner or later there is. Either with the authorities... or with the outcome of such child's life as an adult.
Perhaps there are thousand of planets with life on them that come and go over eternity.
Perhaps. Exciting prospect, IMHO. May all of here be granted the privilege of finding out!
Again, peace to you all!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
tec

Intuition of the "Grandness of things" is not only for those who believe in 'god' or 'jesus'
Of course. Otherwise, there would not be deism or spiritualism or whatever else is out there, that comes from the sense that there IS something/someone/an awareness out there.
AGuest

It bothers me most of all when we compare God to ourselves as being a loving parent...because I don't see this in the world. I see death, starvation, disease and destruction...
From ALL parents, dear ST (again, peace to you!)? And even where there is such, it is due to the parent... or those who hold sway OVER such parents?
as a loving parent, if we had the power to do something about it we would. He doesn't.
He does, dear one... for His "children." The rest must call upon THEIR "father"... for which there are many... and which are quite silent. Unfortunately. One of the great kindnesses and mercies of the Most Holy One of Israel, however, is that He will also take care of the "children" of some of these gods... to the exten they "did good" to HIS "children." Sort of like the father of one family on the street... finding out that the kids of another family were kind to HIS kids... and so when he finds out they're in need... comes to help. For the families whose "simpleton" kids bullied and tortured his kids, though, he's fairly silent. Why? Because the parents are "like" the kids... simpletons (who do you think the kids learned it from?)... and so let him know they don't WANT his help. What's he to do? Can't force anyone to let you be kind to them...
Please note, I also included your previous questions in my previous response.
Again, peace to you!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
AGuest
Given the direction of this thread, I would like to ask a few questions of any who might answer, because I truly am curious (may you all have peace!):
- Would you blame the guy down the street if your were broke but your rent was due, utilities are about to be cut off, and your kids have no food?
- Would you blame that guy if your child came down ill, perhaps even died?
- Would you blame him if he said he didn't help because he had his "own" responsibilities and "own" kids to feed... or would you view that as a valid reason for not saving you and YOUR house/lights/kid(s) (i.e., what part of YOUR household is his responsibility)?
- Would hold HIM responsible for NOT caring for you, YOUR household, and/or YOUR kids?
- Do you believe that YOU are a child of God... and, if so, on what do you base that belief?
I didn't post this on a separate thread because I really am addressing it to any and all who posted on this one. Since I don't want to say, "Yoo-Hoo, dear... such and so(s)"... I just incorporated it. If doing a separate post would better, just let me know - we can do that.
Again, peace to you all!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
jay88

there IS something/someone/an awareness out there
.............
not quite,....
I would say the awareness IS within, and doesn' t require a "god" or "christ"
AGuest

I would say the awareness IS within
I would agree, dear Jay (peace to you!)... but add that we are IN the "awareness", as well. We were not created to be separate from it (actually, Him). Unfortunately, our flesh puts a kind of "barrier" between us... and Him. In addition, we can add TO the barrier... "thicken" it, if you will... by what we think/do... how we treat others... even by looking to "Moses" (the old Law). Several things.
Or... we can transcend ALL of the barriers... including ou flesh... go through the Door... and come in to the Presence of the Awareness... almost (not quite) face to face.
One day, though, all barriers will be removed... including the barrier that is the physical body... and man will not only come into His presence... but actually see Him... face to face.
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
tec

...It bothers me most of all when we compare God to ourselves as being a loving parent...because I don't see this in the world. I see death, starvation, disease and destruction...as a loving parent, if we had the power to do something about it we would. He doesn't. Simple as that. Make all the excuses you like for his lack of involvement. His lack of stepping in tells us a lot about his personality.
Still... how would you stop your child from hurting someone else? From walking past someone who is hungry or homeless, but refusing to help? How would you stop your child from fighting, or going 'their own way?' Especially once that child reaches adulthood. (or teenagehood even, because many of them pretty much stop listening at that point, at least for a while) What if they refused your help; pretty much told you to get lost and let them live their own lives... because they don't need you, want you, or even believe you know what you're talking about?
A parent that simply watches children die and does NOTHING to help...what would you call that parent? Well thats what God our 'father' does every day...watches children die...and does NOTHING.
He did do something (taught/sent His Son), is doing something (comforts/strengthens, STILL sends his son, and continues to call people TO follow His Son), and will do something even more (protect his own from those who would harm them, and restore them to a state of physical and spiritual - so that the physical ailments we currently have no longer matter).
If your concern is for actual children... they are OUR children. If they are starving, it is because WE are letting OUR children starve.
("how often I have longed to gather your children to me as a hen gathers her chicks... but YOU were not willing..." - Christ to the Israelites)
And as far as God knowing...he either does or he doesn't...make up your mind...the bible fortells events that will occur...that is how a lot of it is written. I love the way we switch off our brains when it doesn't make sense. He knows into the future...but he doesn't know everything that will happen to everyone...He has the power to answer our prayers...and possibly change our future events...but he has no control over the future...hogwash!!!
I am not switching off my brain.
Quite honestly, I think its both. He can predict what we are going to do... simply because of our behaviors. But we have free will, so we can also choose for ourselves. Which means that we write our own futures... that just happen to be predictable to someone who knows us. I mean even I - with as little as I know- can tell how some people are going to respond to things being said here on the forum. But just because I can predict how someone is going to respond to something, doesn't mean that I am controlling how they are responding.
So we answer for ourselves.
It can be both though. I think a lot of our conflicts are simply due to our own limitations and lack of understanding. Not 'which side is right?', but rather, 'in what way can both of these right?'.
For instance (and this is just a teeny for instance)... the discrepency between Christ being resurrected in a physical or spiritual body. Two opposites... both sides sure the other is wrong; because how can it be both... how can flesh enter the spiritual realm vs. how can the spirit have holes, wounds, be able to eat? Because it actually is both. Physical resurrection, spiritual ascension (in that He could move between the physical and spiritual... shed the flesh/and also put on the flesh when he returns)
We are very limited in the control we have over our children and our lives...God, supposedly is not. How can we possibly compare what we would do to what he can do. If he was a human parent with the abilities he has he would be found lacking. Society would step in and remove his children from him.
Do you think he should remove our children from us then? Stop us from having children, even... to save him the trouble of removing them from us all over again? Seeing as we're the ones in control over what is happening to our children?
Peace,
Tammy
bohm

47 pages, no answer as far as i can tell
THE GLADIATOR

" N.drew That is very well written Glad (can I call you glad?)"
You can call me anything you want. Glad will do fine - I have been called a lot worse!
***
"To go a little further, if you don't mind the stroll..."
Tammy - I always enjoy a stroll with you. Some interesting thoughts which I shall ponder in the morning. It is just gone midnight in the UK and I have just returned home from a social occasion.
***
AGuest - "No, seriously... I am asking: why does someone's ability to talk to another make that one personally responsible for the other?"
This may be true in human terms but for God to talk to humans would involve commitment of the highest order. You also raise some interesting points. I shall re-read your post in the morning too.
***
Thanks to you all and may your gods go with you.

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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