An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 45)

N.drew

HaHa! We are delusional, so you ask us a question about our delusion? And we should answer? Do you want an answer to the other guy's question?

TheUbermensch

Asking a question about delusion is perfectly normal, is it not to you? Do we not inquire the criminally insane about their crimes? It's a little thing called psychology....

tec

Scripture says the only enduring gift of Holy Spirit is love.

Scripture please?

Also, enduring for how long? How soon do you think all the other gifts die out?

I would say that it is the best gift...without which the other gifts mean little. But only gift? No, I see no reason (or scripture) for that to be true.

The same way Hellfire preachers harm. During WW2, Hitler isn't believed to have personally killed anyone (except himself and possibly Eva Braun). Is that to say he isn't responsible for millions of deaths? Lies and propaganda are weapons. I'm sure you've all heard "The pen is mightier than the sword." Misinformation and ignorance are plagues on this planet and a lot of people in this thread are riddled with it. Some are simply carriers, but others probably have a vastly lower quality of life because of it. Then there are some who naturally have a low quality of life due to low intelligence, horrible education, mental/emotional problems and have deluded themselves that Jesus is hanging out in their living room, making sure nothing bad happens. This is exactly the sort of delusion people who are colossal failures at life need. So many want to believe life is balanced; that for every aspect of one's life that sucks, something else is amazing. Too many people are religious because they feel they need it: Their lives are such atrocious train wrecks that they need to believe the Almighty is personally (or through angels) responsible for the precious few things that aren't going wrong. This is the exact same mentality that causes janitors in polyester suits to believe they're hand-picked by the creator of the Universe to be JW elders.

None of this answers any question pertaining to me; nor speaks anything about me.

I will say, as a side note... that I agree as to one point. Hellfire preachers cause harm, in telling lies about God. Turning people away who might otherwise come to Him, and His Son, if they only knew the Truth.

As for anything else, I wait for any answers you might have as to this post, and the previous question I posted to you.

Peace,

Tammy

N.drew

I'm going to answer. I like how he asked. Be honest (did you break the lamp?). I won't go to hell, and I care not to go. But if it means "death", I might die, it doesn't bother me too much. Now heaven is another story. I do not choose to go. The reason being is I know the few times I have been "in society" of people mingling around, I get a pain in the neck. I do not want to live forever with a pain in the neck. That I know for sure. I am not kidding. I'm being honest.

tec

Uber, I believe I asked you a question back aways. Perhaps you'd like to answer?

Why does no one ever ask how/why Satan beat God in the book of Genesis? How did he get into the garden? Doesn't make any sense.

He didn't beat God... he beat man. He betrayed God and man, however, with his deception. He got into the garden because he was always there, trusted by God and by man (otherwise, why would Adam and Eve not wondered where this 'talking snake' came from. No snake at all, but Satan.)

The world is full of suffering - agreed. But it is also full of the overcoming of suffering. That, to me, is God.

What an awesome statement!

All this 'faith' business is really about 'heaven' isn't it? Or nirvana, or whatever after-reward that the believers accept as potential if they serve God/Allah/Buddha/pick your god of choice.

I must disagree, because for me it is not about that at all.

It is about love. Faith in the one I love.

That makes it even more interesting to me - for believers are 'serving' for a reward that has ABSOLUTELY NEVER been shown to have ever existed. They serve why then? Fear - fear of not attaining the highest reward in heaven for 'right' conduct on this earth.

Again... no. I serve out of love. Not for a reward, not out of fear. Out of love. I fear disapointing Christ and God... not because I am afraid of them, but because we do not like to disapoint those whom we love and who love us.

The 'right' is determined subjectively by them, or by their pastoral leadership perhaps. Still, it is about interpretation of a 'book' that details right and wrong for them. Even this book is interpreted subjectively. The motivation [though I cannot speak for all of them, and certainly all of the believers on this thread will chime in with a different motivation] seems to be self-preservation beyond the grave.

It might be for some. But again, for me and others, no. See above.

What though, if your all-wise god stated to you that there was NO REWARD? Would you continue to praise, sing, read your holy writ daily, pray for others to accept your faith-version? Oh, I know - you will all jump on the 'I don't serve God for personal gain' bandwagon - but fact is - you serve precisely for that reason, though perhaps part of your carefully crafted delusion tells you otherwise.

Love doesn't have to have a reward, Jeff. Do you care for your children (if you have them) because you want something in return from them other than their own happiness and well-being?

If you can understand that, then you can get a grasp of why some serve God and His Son out of love, and not for fear or reward.

I think perhaps you should consider NOT telling people why they serve and what they feel, as I am guessing that you don't like it when others do that to you... especially when they are wrong about you.

Let me ask you this then: If your wonderful, mighty, loving, intelligent, capable, sacrificing, omnipotent, omniscient God is unable/unwilling/uninterested in saving millions of innocent starving babies from torture and death - what makes you think that he is able/willing/interested in honoring reservations you have called in for a place in heaven, reserved strictly based on your self-interest and personal salvation? Would not your powerful sensitive god be far more interested in saving innocents than in providing ways to save selfish believers interested in the final analysis in only saving themselves from a far greater damning in hell?

Since this is completely dependent upon a false premise (at least as pertains to me), then I have no need to answer, right?

Curious minds inquire.

I have answered honsestly. I'm not sure you can accept that though.

Peace,

Tammy

OnTheWayOut

Way back on page 18, AK-Jeff says he has tried to move toward logical presentation, but doesn't do it as well as a few people, OTWO among them.

I must say that his logic in his post #11486 on page 22 is most excellent. (Starts with "All this 'faith' business is really about 'heaven' isn't it?")

tec

I must say that his logic in his post #11486 on page 22 is most excellent. (Starts with "All this 'faith' business is really about 'heaven' isn't it?")

E X cept that it isn't true, OTWO.

I know it isn't true, because it isn't true for me.

Peace,

Tammy

cofty

Oh, I know - you will all jump on the 'I don't serve God for personal gain' bandwagon - but fact is - you serve precisely for that reason, though perhaps part of your carefully crafted delusion tells you otherwise. - AK Jeff

This is a point that needs to be repeated endlessly.

All faith based behaviour is ultimately predicated on selfish reward in this life or the next. God better pay out or you are "most to be pitied".

All this talk about humans being responsible for human suffering is prevarication. Every christian who thanks god for a meal or for a new job or for relief from athletes foot or for the parking space at the mall admits to their belief in a god who acts in this world. You can't have it both ways.

Qcmbr

I wish their was a way to resolve this to everyone's satisfaction but unfortunately either seen reality must bow down to unseen whimsical intelligence or cherished belief must submit to rational logic. Someone's god has to die.

One thing I will profer is that the path of disbelief is deliciously exciting since it levels the field of thought allowing me freedom to choose what to accept without guilt or fear of eternal consequences.

Good thread though thanks to all for making this one gritty but fun.

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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