An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 95)

shamus100

Why in the world would anyone be mad at god if they don't even believe that god exists?

Misplaced anger towards people that believe. I can see it, can't you?

jay88

Unfortunately, our flesh puts a kind of "barrier" between us... and Him.

............

The barriers are the ones you create, regardless of flesh

tec

Tec - confronted by evidence against your god I have not seen any movement towards a skeptical thought process from your original position

Perhaps because I have not been confronted with evidence against my God. (at least nothing new that has given me no cause to doubt, based on what I understand) I mean, once you understand something... you have to be confronted with something new that might make you skeptical of your previous position, right? There is no reason for me to be skeptical, based on anything I have read in this thread.

Similarly, however, I haven't seen any movement from you toward a skeptical thought process from your original position.

and in fact I'd say youve moved to a more extreme faith position under the tutelage of AG.

Well, it is a fact that you'd say that.

Doesn't make it true... though I will admit to going and asking and looking with an open heart/mind because of the things that she shared, which also rang true with me. But if you go back and read some of my earlier threads, a lot of what I believed was the same as a lot of what Shelby shares. And I hadn't yet read anything that she shared.

Side question... what in the world do you consider and e X tremist? Because to me it sounds as though you think an e X tremist is someone with strong faith... as opposed to someone who has wishy/washy faith. Seems silly to me, to think that wishy/washy faith is somehow a better thing to have (for you and your ability to shake it, perhaps... but not for faith) But perhaps I misunderstand.

Please feel free to point out faith positions you have changed due to facts.

That the bible is the Word of God (though I never REALLY thought that).

That the bible is inerrant (again, though, I never fully thought that... I wasn't raised religious, so all of these terms and doctrines and rules; they don't mean anything to me)

That the bible was one complete book.

That the JW's are God's channel.

That any religion can, itself, be the Truth.

That there is one true religion out there somewhere.

That the 'christian' hell is real.

That gay people are sinning against God.

That atheists are selfless, immoral, uncaring, rude and mean.

That God and Jesus are silent.

Man, I could keep going, but I'd be here a while.

The thing is, Q... I guarentee that I didn't believe all the things you believed when you were a believer. Because no one ever taught me to believe those things. The trinity... never heard of it until the JW's tried to 'unteach' me. I though the NT consisted of the five gospels... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John... and Paul. Confused me sometimes why no one ever referred to the book of Paul, lol! All I ever really knew was that there is a God, that Jesus was his son, that they loved me (for the bible tells me so), that I could go to heaven because of Jesus, and also if I was good. That I might also go to hell if I was bad. That everything I ever prayed for was answered. (call that what you may, but it was pretty strong evidence for a kid/teenager) But that was the 'hollywood' e X tent of what I knew before I started studying with the JW's... and then I tried so hard to believe their take on things, because they were so NICE. I even convinced myself that 'right or wrong' they were still the channel God was using. But it just didn't make sense, and in the end, I turned away from them.

But not from God... or His Son.

Peace,

Tammy

myelaine

dear still thinking...

you said: "It bothers me most of all when we compare God to ourselves as being a loving parent...because I don't see this in the world. I see death, starvation, disease and destruction...as a loving parent, if we had the power to do something about it we would. He doesn't. "...it is shown in the bible and proven in the world that God works primarily on the "spiritual man" in this realm. the "flesh man" is to be cast off or the "physical sorrows" are to be credited as nothing compared to the joy of the (redeemed) world to come. romans 8:18:23 (luke 22:37)

having said that, have you excercised your "power" (in this world) to be of utmost assistance in the fight against death, starvation, disease and destruction?...

you know, God opens doors and closes forever doors that go no where.

love michelle

still thinking

tec...

If your concern is for actual children... they are OUR children. If they are starving, it is because WE are letting OUR children starve.

Has God disowned them? Are they no longer his children? Is he NOT their father? Or does he pick and choose who he will look after and protect?

Is he a parent that shows favouritism towards his children?

Still... how would you stop your child from hurting someone else? From walking past someone who is hungry or homeless, but refusing to help? How would you stop your child from fighting, or going 'their own way?'

Again, comparing human abilities to Gods supposed abilities. As I have said..we don't have that power, but apparrently he does...but does nothing.

How would I create a world, humans, animals, plant life?...I can't do these things either so why try to compare them?

Why do we continue to blame humans for everything when God...the perfect God created us this way...It can only be from his imperfection that these things have resulted...if not...he mustn't exist.

still thinking

myelaine...I just love it when we question what God does or does not do, people always come back to 'what are you doing?'

Well, that is not the question here. Plenty of humans do plenty to help and plenty don't. The question is...why does God let children starve to death. Are they not his children? How can you really justify any God allowing a child to die such a horrible painful death...what sort of God is that? What type of God are you worshiping that allows such cruelty? It really isn't that far away from human sacrafice in my eyes...sacrificing children for Gods purpose...to prove a point...so that we may be saved.

Well I thought Jesus was the sacrifice...why does god allow children to be treated this way?

God closed the doors alright...

He closed the door to these children...blame humans ALL you like...but who is the CREATOR...who has the power to change this situation...who really does NOTHING?? Who watches while his children suffer? Your God? Keep justifying it...then you can move on to all the other things he watches and does nothing about. What are we? An experiment?

N.drew

I think what you are doing is similar to what is called suicide by cop, still thinking.

tec

Sorry if this seems so immediate, lol, I just finished watching Supernatural, and then checked in here... and then you posted.

Has God disowned them? Are they no longer his children? Is he NOT their father? Or does he pick and choose who he will look after and protect?

Is he a parent that shows favouritism towards his children?

Like I asked in that last post, should he take our children from us, to protect them from us... and from what we teach them? Stop us from being able to have children at all? How many people do you think would be crying out against the injustice of that? How many people would be calling that evil?

(how many people would eX ist for that matter, if we could no longer reproduce)

Again, comparing human abilities to Gods supposed abilities. As I have said..we don't have that power, but apparrently he does...but does nothing.

Okay.

Do you see that you are comparing human abilities to God's supposed abilities, while at the same time saying that we cannot do this comparing? Because if He is real - and as Christ showed Him to be (of love, knowing what is inside of us)... then HE alone would know what to do, how and when to act, and to whom. How can you say... "we can't compare him to us because he is supposed to be above us..." and in the same breath say, "Buuuuut... THIS is what he should be doing. Because this is what humans would do if humans had that power."

(It isn't what 'humans' would do though... if humans don't use the power that they do have against suffering, then why would they use the power that God has to end suffering? Instead, some would use their power to help, and some would use their power to gain things for themselves, as well as hurt their 'enemies' even more. Good thing we don't have that power, because we would totally abuse it.)

But again, he does not do nothing. He HAS taught us what we should do so that we can end suffering. If we choose not to listen, then we have only ourselves to blame when things don't go the way we want them to go.

Why do we continue to blame humans for everything when God...the perfect God created us this way...It can only be from his imperfection that these things have resulted...if not...he mustn't exist.

Well, we could have had limited free will, I suppose. It just seems kind of empty to me.

Peace,

Tammy

d

I have given up believing in God and humanity in general.

tec

It is hard, D, I know.

But you can't let yourself get bogged down by what others are or are not doing. You can only control what you do - not what others do/not even how others react. Help one person. Give a beggar some change, or a slice of pizza. Bring something down to a clothing shelter. Buy someone a meal, shovel someone's driveway(providing it snows where you are), mow someone's lawn.

"Be the change you want to see in the world." (even if no one else is being that change with you)

Peace to you,

Tammy

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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