we can't compare him to us because he is supposed to be above us
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it is no comparison, because it is just that, no comparison.
If man is his own problem,......then man has to fix it , no need for the belief of 'god' or 'christ'
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences
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still thinking
But again, he does not do nothing. He HAS taught us what we should do so that we can end suffering. If we choose not to listen, then we have only ourselves to blame when things don't go the way we want them to go.
Tell me, who are the WE you are referring to...All my life I believed in god...this made not a jot of difference to those people who are dying needlessly...this didn't prevent people from being murdered...this ended no ones suffering. He knows that it won't happen, he knows that the whole earth will not do what he wants...so why keep torturing the human race. Does he derive some pleasure from it?
I only compare him to a father because that is what the bible says he is...not my opinion. I don't believe he has the right to compare himself to a father...a father earns that title...unless of course you count the ones that spread their seed and bugger off...then,I suppose you could count him as one. You are saying that I am comparing him to that...well I believe Jesus called him father...so forgive me for thinking that it would have a similar meaning. Is this just another thing that is misunderstood in the bible?
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sizemik
Free will, the kind sizmik is describing, isn't real. Free will is always in partnership with law. Reality (law) or love (law), one must choose.... N.drew
That's the tightest piece I've circular reasoning I've ever seen. I almost disappeared up my own arse reading it.
So is free will needed in order to choose law? Or is law needed before free will exists? What's it going to be . . . the chicken or the egg?
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Qcmbr
Sigh AG and Tec. Shall I instead use the word zealous and see if you can misuse that word to try and portray yourselves as victims of an arrogant atheist. You hold extreme positions ( flipping' heck AG talks to the - ever peaceful army overlord of peaceful non-violent angels of the entire universe - at night!) you both hold very strong unwavering positions that most people would consider extreme. It busts my chaps when you deliberately trash common sense in your rush to pretend to being undefinable and thus able to hold any position you so choose with a twist of your words. Surely bible god likes extremists since he spews out the rest?
AG in your 50 plus words butchering my question to you how did you manage to avoid the simple point and instead turn it into another preaching session? Let me restate it and see how you will wriggle your way out or whether you'll ignore it ( a position you have every right to - its a tough question )
What factual or tangible information would cause you to publically rescind your belief statements regarding your god?
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Qcmbr
Tec - I am a skeptic. I was once a believer. Do you understand? I reject faith and instead embrace the evidence based scientific method as a way to verify what is true.
When confronted by the facts of universal suffering and the results of many prayer experiments where I prayed for the cessation of such suffering on a local through to global position and seeing zero positive outcome to such prayers I can only conclude that:
My concept of an all powerful god willing to answer prayers for the removal of pain and suffering who loves all equally and is actively participating in this world is fundamentally wrong.
The facts do not support the above assertion no matter how one may try and excuse the most powerful being and act as his spokesperson since he doesn't deign to talk to mankind.
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sizemik
This thread's taken twists and turns like a braided river . . . that never reaches the sea.
@Tammy . . . your post 6634 . . . I can honestly say I agree with every word of it. Some things are the same for different folks for different reasons. Common ground is a good thing though.
My conclusion comes from the logic presented by some good posts . . . that the presence of evil, along with an all-knowing all-powerful God, is logically incompatible from every conceivable angle. I'm fresh out of angles.
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THE GLADIATOR
In post 1784 I said -“The question I ask is simply – Is the universe aware of itself? I believe it may be. Not awareness in the way humans think of awareness due to their overdeveloped right brain function.”
That should have read left brain function – The part of the brain that deals with cognitive thought.
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“To go a little further, if you don't mind the stroll... if you think the universe (I say God - in whom all things hold together and have their e X istence, including the universe) is self-aware, and has an awareness of all things (a knowing of all things, because it permeates all things)... then perhaps there are some people/creatures who listen for or sense that being... due to the presence of this awareness/connection already in them?”
Tammy -I understand totally what you are saying and I think that many people, atheists include, would understand that a force greater than ourselves may pervades the universe. The question is whether that force or awareness is an impartial nameless part of existence - or a personal being that chooses at times to intervene in human’s affairs or at other times stands back and allows suffering.We are compelled to examine the morality of such a being.
You have presented a persuasive and obviously sincere argument for the existence of a personal God. You have found sufficient reason to believe in a personal God and his way of doing things. I am prepared to total alter my views if I can find sufficient evidence to dissolve my reticence in the existence of a loving God. The only way to bridge that gap is to take a leap of faith. Alas faith is not the possession of all people.
I shall continue to follow your posts looking for the missing link.
Take Care
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As J88 said, “Intuition of the "Grandness of things" is not only for those who believe in 'god' or 'jesus'”
It becomes a matter of whether we put faith in.
Well said!
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THE GLADIATOR
AGuest – I have re-read you post in the light of this fresh Sunday morning. It seems that we arrive at the point where although I can contemplate an impersonal universal awareness that does not interfere the affairs of humans and is not responsible for our well being and does not have any need or interest in being worshiped - You believe in a personal God that communicates with humans and has rewards lined up for those that choose to put faith in, acknowledge and worship him.
For me to believe in such a being, I would be faced with the dilemma this thread originaly posed. You have written many pages in an attempt to explain how a loving all powerful God can allow so much suffering. I have tried to follow your reasoning but find I am still missing some major pieces of the jig-saw. I shall continue to read your posts and see if I can put more of the picture together.
I would feel more comfortable if you occasionally made some typing errors to reassure a mere mortal like me.
Take it easy with that shoulder.
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N.drew
I think the problem is this:
One person suffering is different in some people's opinion then one million people suffering. The more who suffer, the more some people move away from belief in God it seems. That does not make sense to me. And I believe Jeheshua came, and was actually sent to relive relieve the suffering of the very last one. Everyone. That is what "OUR FATHER" means.
This here is for you sizemik I think it is not me! Hahah. I hope so!
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soft+gentle
bingo sizemik, lots we can agree on
@soft+gentle . . .
I believe I've felt something similar. For quite a few years after leaving the JW's I prayed to Christ a lot, read the gospels for a time, and did a lot of other reading. But I recall feeling that biological evolution ran concurrently with our moral and spiritual evolution. It enabled me to relieve the dissonance between contemporary scientific knowledge, the Bible, and the desire for God to remain.
I still have that desire . . . for God to remain . . . but if he does exist, I don't think he's anything like humans have believed or portrayed. The debate is moot from this personal point of view . . . if he has these supreme qualities we like to believe he has . . . he has not made it evident in any way to me. By his choice we live in different worlds at present. I'm not loaded with guilt over it.
