An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  shamus100

  TEC!

  You are needed on another forum.

  ** monkey kisses **

  And now back to your regularly scheduled debate.
• 

  tec

  I did get that that was Smeegle, dear N.drew

  Aawww... think that was just for you, Gladiator ;)

  Peace to you,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Oh yeah...

  *kisses back, and runs to the other place before she can lose her face*
• 

  still thinking

  so tec...one last question..or three.....

  Do you think it is justified that children die of starvation because in the end God will save the ones he is father too?

  Yet still tried to teach them, even knowing that they would refuse him. Out of love for them, and mercy, and hope.

  If he already knew...what is the point of hope?..kind of contradictory don't you think?
• 

  AGuest

  So Aguest...is this why he couldn't care less about children starving...he isn't their father?

  To the contrary, dear ST (again, peace to you!)... He cares VERY much for such children... even though He isn't their father. And some of these (and their parents, etc.) will ultimately benefit because of how they treated HIS children. In the meantime, He has told HIS children how they are to treat THESE... and all others. We don't always get that, right away, but we eventually do... and do what WE can. Trust me, it bothers US, too... that others ALLOW these children to starve. But just like there are a million starving in, say, Africa... there are children starving in my own back yard. Adults, too. So... I do what I can for those I come across.

  Do I do things the WORLD is aware of? No. My country? Uh-uh. My city... neighborhood? Nope. Why? Because I do it for those I help, not for myself... or any "glory" that I might receive as a result. No horn blowing, etc. So, you won't see my name on any buildings or plaques, etc., sorry.

  May I ask you, though, on a previous page I asked the following questions. Would you be so kind as to respond as to yourself? If not, I understand, but I think that if you just considered them you might understand where "we're" coming from on some of these matters.

  • Would you blame the guy down the street if your were broke but your rent was due, utilities are about to be cut off, and your kids have no food?
  • Would you blame that guy if your child came down ill, perhaps even died?
  • Would you blame him if he said he didn't help because he had his "own" responsibilities and "own" kids to feed... or would you view that as a valid reason for not saving you and YOUR house/lights/kid(s) (i.e., what part of YOUR household is his responsibility)?
  • Would hold HIM responsible for NOT caring for you, YOUR household, and/or YOUR kids?
  • Do you believe that YOU are a child of God... and, if so, on what do you base that belief?

  If do decide to respond, please know I truly appreciate it and thank you, in advance.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  AGuest

  The greatest of love and peace to you, dear Twitch... and may the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... JAH of Armies... and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... be upon you, if you wish it... and your entire household... to time indefinite.

  YOUR servant (because I am servant to the Household of God, Israel, and all those who go with)... and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  Do you think it is justified that children die of starvation because in the end God will save the ones he is father too?

  Justified? No. Not at all.

  If people are saying that it is justified that we do nothing, because God will save the kids in the end... then definitely not.

  ((There is something I find wrong with the bolded part of your words. Not sure I can fully describe what that is, yet. But Christ did say, let the children come to me... for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. (and also that their angels always see the face of God - I am not sure I understand what that means, precisely... I mean, it sounds as though children always have the ear of God, or something along those lines))

  If he already knew...what is the point of hope?..kind of contradictory don't you think?

  Yes, and I'm sorry.

  Corrected version: He still tried to teach them, even knowing that some/many would refuse him. Those with 'ears', however, did hear him. But at the same time, wouldn't you give those you love the benefit of the doubt, the HOPE that they might hear you and the truth/love you try to share with them?

  That is what we do for those we love.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear still thinking...

  you said: "I just love it when we question what God does or does not do, people always come back to 'what are you doing?'

  Well, that is not the question here. Plenty of humans do plenty to help and plenty don't. The question is...why does God let children starve to death. Are they not his children? "...

  I asked you what you were doing because if you don't believe in God then you don't have reason to pass the buck do you?...you said that plenty of people do help the poor of other nations... I know plenty of people do...do you? until you do more than the minimum (out of guilt) you still don't have reason to pass the buck do you?

  I suspect that you didn't bother to read the scriptures that I included. The bible says that God has a plan.(romans 8:18-23) Those who believe in His Son as their redeemer were to spread this message to the ends of the world. typically this would mean that a significant number would be on the same page so to speak and working in uniSon as an army (actually extending effort as well as resources for the oppressed in the name of Jesus)of God taking direction from Him and doing His will we would feed the hungry and generally make the world a better more equitable place...BUT...mankind (including unfortunately some who call themselves christians), being generally self-centered and power hungry, decided that this plan didn't serve thier purposes. In fact it went against their plans, their very nature and character.

  God also knew our unredeemed fallen nature and character would eventually lead us to destroy ourselves completely...that's why Jesus said that the things concerning Him had an end(luke22:37)...there will be an end to God's efforts to redeem mankind. That end is soon because He cares for these little ones who have suffered at the hands of unredeemed mankind. He's going to disallow passing the buck and take these little ones back to Himself.

  love michelle

  p.s. these little ones are NOT gods...they are humans...OUR human children.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I wasn't going to come back here, but there is still hope for some.

  While I disagree about putting ALL the blame on men, I can kind of see you believers' points on starving children in Africa. If you want to say it "pains" God to see humans mismanaging things that badly, I think it just serves to comfort your beliefs in Him standing by doing nothing, but I can see the other side of that too.

  So stick with the children Indonesian tsunami victims. Trying to blame their parents for not having the expertise to save them isn't much of an excuse. Saying they or their parents don't know Joeashua Methusalah and Jah isn't much of an excuse. The fact remains that innocent children died in a natural disaster in which any existing omnipotent omnibenevolent "God" would have intervened.

  If you want to blame the humans for that, then I have to lump you in with the God not worthy of worship for not intervening. You are not worthy of time debating with. An omnibenevolent "God" would intervene despite the humans who weren't prepared to spare the children.

  It wouldn't upset the scales of free will or good vs. evil or whatever other excuses you might choose to throw out there to simply have prevented such a disaster or to cause something to spare those children with or without revealing it as a miracle from an omnibenevolent God.
• 

  tec

  What? No one. Don't be silly. Hell, we can't get you to cry about the injustice of God NOT doing anything. God knows you aren't going to accuse HimHerIt of injustice for actually doing something moral and correct.

  What if you thought you were raising your children right... morally and correctly? Do you think you would be crying out against the injustice of having your children taken away? (or as I said, not being allowed to have them in the first place... meaning perhaps that we would not be alive as a race at all.)

  I mean, most people don't like ANYONE telling them how to raise their children. "What...? You think I should teach my kid to turn the other cheek...? You crazy? Oh, you think I should teach my kid to give his (or my) hard-earned money to that bum on the street looking for a handout? You think I should teach my child to LOVE his ENEMIES? You're off your rocker!"

  Perhaps you just meant things like obvious and illegal abuse... hence your comment about child services. But I did not mean just those things. Those things are obvious wrongs to US (well, many of us anyway). To God, I think there are many other obvious wrongs that we don't acknowledge.

  Smaller things that we recognize, but ignore: Often many people teach their children to do good to others... by word. We know what's right a lot of the time, and we try to teach it. But our own deeds teach our children something else entirely. I think kids look to the deeds more than they look to the words. (Don't hit! But then you smack them - fingers, swat on the butt, whatever. Or "forgive your friend when he says sorry"... but then you don't forgive when someone wrongs you, and you instead hold on to your anger, even sometimes against your children. "Don't lie!... bu then call in to work 'sick'. Or don't steal... but then lie about your kids age to get them into something for cheaper, and even teach them to do the same. Parents can be some of the worst hypocrites alive... and they even justify it by saying... do as I say, not as I do!)

  But we very often love our children, even though we all fail them in some ways, and help them in other ways... and they love us. Neither child nor parent (not counting abusive cases) want to be separated, despite one another's faults. Because love covers over those faults. It would hurt us both.

  So for God to take our children from us... yeah, there would be one great outcry against that.

  Peace,

  Tammy