the elders want to meet with me tomorrow

by wannabefree 146 Replies latest members private

• 

  Morbidzbaby

  Ugh, I'm sorry wannabefree! I know what it's like to be hounded and chased by elders...but also know that, while not easy, it's possible to just avoid them altogether.

  00DAD had some really great input, as well as flipper and others. Don't give them anything...because, in short, you OWE them NOTHING. Your life is YOUR business. Your beliefs (or lack of) are YOUR business.

  If they speak to your wife, they still only have ONE witness to your so-called "apostasy". That isn't enough. They need 2. If you haven't spoken to anyone else about your doubts and feelings, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

  Your family needs to grasp and really understand what the result will be if you are disfellowshipped. They themselves might be shunned. They might have to limit their conversations with you, even within the same household. Family outings may come to a halt if your wife decides to be Watchtower Loyal. Sad to say, but some spouses decide that even sexual relations with a DF'ed mate are a no-no (that's not "necessary family business"), and may even file for separation on the grounds of so-called "spiritual endangerment". Tread lightly.

  If they are wanting to meet at the hall, you can bet they've filled their tackle boxes and bought extra worms because they're going fishing for something. Don't give them that opportunity. Refuse to meet. You're busy. You have a lot going on...they do NOT have to know specifics!! Don't say "Well, I have this huge project at work, but when that's done, maybe...". Just be vague and say you're busy. Period. If they press, tell them it's personal and you will not be discussing it with them.

  If they mention that someone has brought an accusation against you, THIS is where you use the Bible to your advantage! This is something you could say:

  "Brother XXXX, according to the Bible, I do not have to speak to you about this matter. Jesus himself said at Matthew 5: 23, 24 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to that person; then come and offer your gift." Apparently, Brother XXXX, someone has breached the protocol that Jesus set out for us when dealing with disputes in the congregation. Therefore, I need to go to this brother or sister FIRST and see what the problem is. Then, if there is no response, I would follow the Bible's counsel to bring another brother or sister with me as a witness...and then if there is still no solving the matter, THEN we would come to you... Or is that not how we are doing things anymore? You see, Brother, several steps have been skipped here, so asking me to meet with you is kind of going against Jesus' words, is it not? I'm sorry this person breached the order of things, but if you'll tell me who it was, we can get it straightened out between the two of us instead of involving the elders...I'm sure you and the Body have much more important matters to tend to."

  I actually know someone who got out of meeting with the elders because they used this line of reasoning. They COULD NOT refute it and agreed that the person was correct.
• 

  3rdgen

  Morbidsbaby, IMHO, Yours is the best advice of all. Wannabefree, Stall as long as possible, then positively ask who your accusor is. Matt 18 :15 is in scores of WTs as the way to settle SERIOUS disputes

  /accusations. They won't be able to refute the process laid out. BRILLIANT
• 

  diamondiiz

  She most definately is not on my side in this matter.

  From this sentence alone, it tells me that this is serious. I don't know about others but if you wife was the source of elders calling you in, how can you deny it. How would two witness rule play in here? They could call her in and what then? How strong is your marriage and how would it fare if you were to be DF or even deny what she told them, in other words calling her a liar in front of elders may not be good for your marriage.

  Maybe some x-elders here can give a better perspective on your situation.

  If you are trying to stay in without getting DF, maybe think of a scenario of showing doubts but acknowledge that GB are f&D are God's channel of communication. You can show the concern for your weak faith from the latest rags dealing with 607, and how will the elders answer the facts where sources are being misquoted and the vat tablet is plainly deceitful (don't use the word deceit). You can bring up UN/Child Abuse as other faith destroying scandals.

  Best is not to go and avoid the meeting but depending where the source of their concern originated you may not have that much luck with getting out of it so the next best thing is to show weakness in faith but never doubt GB's role in god's plan. Also, it depends on the elders in your congregation. Lots of things to balance here to make it work if it's possible as denying everything may not work in your case due to the wife.

  Maybe the lawyer card might work. Tape them, get them all to agree to some question of yours so after you edit the recording it sounds like they're agreeing to being taped. Honestly, I wish you luck as you might need it.
• 

  Morbidzbaby

  RE: The wife, if SHE is the one bringing accusations, you could always tell the elders she was mistaken and didn't hear you correctly and was just acting out of concern for you...that she wanted to go to them before you became too weak and she was afraid and spoke out of fear, not facts. Tell them you're fine, but that in the future you will be exercising your Headship and they are not to speak to her about private matters without your presence. This is, after all, their own policy. When I went up for a JC, the elders demanded my husband be present because he was "my head". So, use their own game against them.
• 

  jamiebowers

  I'm sorry to hear about this and feel especially bad about this:

  I have tried to have conversations with my wife, we had another one this morning. She most definately is not on my side in this matter. It's God's Organization, other smart people have already proven it to themselves, she doesn't have to and isn't going to, as far as she is concerned what I am doing to the family is reprehensible.

  If your wife really feels this way and if she ratted you out to the elders, is your marriage salvagable? As a woman and a wife, her attitude is highly offensive to me and to Bible principles. I'm sorry to be such a downer, but make sure what you're fighting for is worth it. Your kids are a different matter. Even in the case of divorce, you have legal rights to them. And with two-thirds of young people leaving the borg, you have a pretty good chance of not being shunned by them.

  You're a grown man and have no reason to fear or submit to the elders. If you don't want to meet with them, simply tell them, "NO!" Your wife sounds too hard headed to listen to advice, so don't waste your breath on this. But once the lovebombing is over, she'll be less than useless to her beloved cult if she has no man in it.
• 

  Black Sheep

  other smart people have already proven it to themselves, she doesn't have to and isn't going to

  I've made sure that all of my family know that I don't accept illegitimate excuses for not answering questions.

  If they are not prepared to front up with proof, then they should back off and behave themselves instead of behaving like members of other churches, that I have personally heard them slag off, by using the same reasoning to maintain their faith in their church hierarchy.

  JWs need to feel guilty for every illegitimate tactic they try to use against you. They don't have the moral high ground. Don't let them pretend they do.
• 

  shepherd

  "They want me to meet with them at the hall."

  It is very unlikely this is a shepherding meeting. This is either a JC or more likely a preliminary one to establish there are grounds to call one. There is strong possibility your wife already knows what it is all about and may have even gone to them.

  The very best advice is to say as little as possible if you meet with them. Let them do all the talking. Answer questions with questions. Ask directly what is the purpose of the meeting. If they ask questions in order to trap you, answer with questions such as 'what exactly am I being accused of?' and once you have established that, thank them for their concern and say you need to think about what they have said and you will now leave.

  "If they speak to your wife, they still only have ONE witness to your so-called "apostasy". That isn't enough. They need 2" - This is why it is important not to repeat any doubts to the elders. They will pretend to be concerned but really they are hoping they can trap you into letting them be witnesses to your doubts.

  The very best tip: Don't express doubts, don't question doctrines, don't say anything negative at all about the Org. You are not going to win that argument whatever you say, so don't go down that route. Instead keep it personal to you if all they are concerned about is your recent inactivity - you are stressed, or depressed, or very busy at work, or whatever you can think of to provide an excuse. Once they start to pile on the guilt (think about your family stuff) thank them and say you will think about what they have said but you prefer to leave now.

  However, it sounds more like you are about to be accused of something. If your wife has betrayed you over anything, don't take it out on here when you get home. She is blinded by the crap and may really think she is really helping you. As much as you can, try to keep the peace with her. Later you will regret any outburst.
• 

  Anony Mous

  I had the same issue. I just left. I made some scathing comments and even talks before I left but if you're already considered inactive or so, just let it be. Just tell your wife you don't want to go and stop going. Ignore the elders, you'll need to work on the relationship with your wife. If you really want to you can go and discuss a little with the elders (I did) but you've got to be pretty strong and know where you stand. I got the second elder to doubt a little bit and he got really quiet after which they quickly left and haven't heard from them yet, all that happened was a talk in the local needs about apostacy (or so I've heard) and several have walked out a few weeks after I left.

  I lost my wife and I have a young child (5 months old now) but I cannot be blamed for not doing my best to help them even now. I hope my daughter follows my footsteps later on in life when she grows up, I will always try to have a close relationship with her and I'm not shy to defend myself whenever my wife goes on a tangent about it.

  In the end, I think it worked out the best for both of us. In the JW org. you are not who you really are, I changed tremendously in the last year so much that my wife says she doesn't even know me anymore and that's true, I have always repressed my true persona and have been shy and depressed for most of my life. Now I am a different person, less shy, not depressed, sexually different, no regrets, actual goals in life, a feeling of self-worth and definitely more assertive.
• 

  cedars

  She most definately is not on my side in this matter.

  I agree with leavingwt - that is a real shame, and it does change things. Without her as your ally, she can say whatever she likes about you when the elders pull her to one side, and they can take that as 'evidence' of your apostasy.

  I often take for granted that I have a wife who is on my side, even though she still attends. I can't imagine how awful it would be to have your wife think you are "reprehensible" just for disagreeing with the Governing Body. I find it despicable that the Society are allowed to disagree with THEMSELVES posthumously, whereas normal Witnesses are not allowed to disagree with them contemporarily. It's madness.

  In that case, scrap my advice (again). Batten down the hatches, and do whatever you can in the form of damage limitation. I would prepare yourself emotionally to be disfellowshipped. I do feel for you.

  Cedars
• 

  besty

  sorry to hear about your situation wannabefree - a big part of the value of JWD is sharing your circumstances with people who have bought their own T-Shirt and seen many others buying theirs over the years - same news, different people - sad to say.

  Taking a few steps back I think you need a plan for what the rest of your life looks - options might be successfully 'faded' mate with a long-suffering true believer wife, DF'd, DA'd apostate with a spiritually and maybe literally broken family, fade out successfully with your family onside, convince your wife and go out in a blaze of apostate glory....mmmmm..... Think about what each of these and maybe other options would be look like. How can you best be true to yourself, achieve your life goals, keep your family together AND leave a cult. Not easy to figure it out and execute your plan successfully.

  in terms of the immediate tactical situation with the elders I would consider meeting with them so as not to raise the temperature any further - know your enemy I guess...listen to what they have to say and politely repeat that for now you wont be at the meetings - you have some personal reasons that you don't want to discuss and will be sure to reach out to them if anything changes. Let them know they are always welcome to stop by to share a scripture and a coffee - (you will of course be repeating the same few non-commital sentences on each visit). If they have something more tangible by way of 'evidence' and 2 witnesses then some of your initial outcomes may already be decided unless you are prepared to lie through your teeth....If they have suspicions and no witnesses then you have to lie low, particularly with your wife. Consider resetting your fade if that is your strategy.

  Hope that helps - and best of luck!

  Paul (fade didn't work, got DF'd with wife for apostasy, ripping off the Band-Aid was the best thing that ever happened to us)