Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?

by snare&racket 403 Replies latest jw friends

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  tec

  Once you throw out the bath water of religion/belief/faith, there was no baby to begin with.

  In a sense, I agree with you, and a few other posters who said there was no baby. Only bathwater.

  If your faith was in religion and men, then you might not have had the baby to begin with. Just the bathwaters. So that is all you had to throw out.

  Do you really think there is a big man in the sky?

  Nope.

  I think there is a creator, God, shown to us through His Son. God is spirit and the spiritual realm is not the same as the physical realm. So no 'man' in the 'sky'.

  If that's the case, who decides what can be trusted, and what should be disagreed with?

  I guess you do. Do you believe that Christ is the Truth, or do you believe he's just a little bit of the truth? (not asking you, personally...) If Christ is the Truth and you are following Him... then anything that is in harmony with His teachings (word and deed) is also truth. Anything that is in conflict with Him is not truth. Once you know the truth, it is easy to spot a lie.

  The bible is a tool, CoC. It tells us things that happened and were believed in the pov of the writer. It tell us a bit about people. It tells us a bit about Christ. Some messages are carried through multiple books, and some seem out of place. Some of those writers claimed inspiration; some merely claimed to have investigated or taken an historical accounting. But the bible is not one book just because some men somewhere slapped it together and called it one book, with one author, and deemed it inerrant.

  Christ is the Truth. Know Him, no problems.

  So N.drew or Tec can you tell me one really important thing that the bible says which is a result of mistranslation or "lying scribes"? Something that would make a significant difference to your beleifs.

  "I punish the children to the third and fourth generation."

  I don't recall where that is, but that is in conflict with Christ teachings and deeds. It is even in conflict with other books in the OT where God is written to have said that He does NOT punish the children for the sins of the Father.

  However, someone may have thought this to be true. Children do suffer for the sins of the previous generations because we leave them with the natural consequences of our actions. If we are racist, we teach it to our children, and all the consequences that come with that fall into their laps. If we destroy the environment, we leave the harmful effects to our children. That is our children paying for our sins. Not God punishing them for our sins. But if someone who wrote that verse (I punish to the third and fourth generation) was more of a 'calvanist' in thinking, then it would only make sense to them to believe that all suffering is punishment from God. So I can understand how that view got into the bible. But that does not make it truth.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  Zid quoted me: "And yet, are you not doing the exact same thing here? "folks who swallow this thing called belief without question"... tec - referring to atheism No, that was Tec referring to AKJeff's view of believers. Had nothing to do with atheism/theism. Had to do with judging others for doing the same thing that you, yourself, do. Please re-read his post, then mine. So your following post:

  "This mentality is very common among theists who have never taken the time to do extensive reading of scientific literature. Really, the claim that atheism constitutes a "religion" [- based on "belief" -] is wishful thinking on the part of the theists..."

  This does not have anything to do with me, even though you are trying very hard to put me in this bo x , it seems.

  I have never claimed - EVER - that atheism constitutes a religion (something based on "belief", as you put it).

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  NewChapter

  Christ is the Truth. Know Him, no problems.

  Tec---this is not possible in your context. you are selective. If we bring up a bible teaching that feels wrong, you simply say oh that wasn't really what happened, or that was a wrong point of view. If we bring up the way those who claim to worship christ act, you say, oh that is not really what Jesus was about---they are poor representatives. As though your understanding is the final truth on the matter. Now if I used the exact same tools as you have used, and I conclude that this is a brutal person that supported genocide of centuries past---you will say that I shouldn't give credence to that part of the tool that you used. It is dizzifiying. In the end, you've defined everything according to what you feel is right. Your guidance comes from inside yourself as you reject outside guidance you don't agree with. Your understanding is molded by your desire for Jesus to be who you approve of. That's fine. But it seems to be quite the muddy pool you draw your water from. I will never understand it.

  NC
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  cofty

  Tec - Its actually more likely that the more difficult statements in the bible are original. Why would anybody tamper with a book to make it harder to believe? There are a number of examples in the gospels.

  The point is you have no basis whatsoever for your decisions, it is totally capricious. The stuff you don't like you reject and other bits you choose to trust.

  If it wasn't for the bible you wouldn't know a single word Jesus (yaheshua/christ/whatever) allegedly said.
• 

  sizemik

  On that score the Bible squarely disqualifies itself as a source of anything good by it's own words . . .

  Does a fountain send out from the same opening both fresh and bitter water? . . . James 3:11 (NASV)
• 

  tec

  Tec---this is not possible in your context. you are selective.

  I am selective about the bible. Not about Christ. Christ is not the bible. Some of the books in the bible simply record some of his life and teachings.

  If we bring up a bible teaching that feels wrong, you simply say oh that wasn't really what happened, or that was a wrong point of view.

  If you bring up a bible teaching that conflicts with Christ.

  If we bring up the way those who claim to worship christ act, you say, oh that is not really what Jesus was about---they are poor representatives.

  Well, I don't know what you want me to say about that. If you see someone not acting in line with what Christ taught - through word and/or deed - then they are indeed poor representatives. Westboro baptist for e x ample. All those people on facebook who keep wanting to kill atheists, and who have so much hate within them. No mercy, no forgiveness, no love. Kind of the opposite of Christ.

  As though your understanding is the final truth on the matter.

  My understanding is far from the final truth on anything. Judge for yourself, and I will do the same.

  Now if I used the exact same tools as you have used, and I conclude that this is a brutal person that supported genocide of centuries past---you will say that I shouldn't give credence to that part of the tool that you used.

  I am looking at Christ - the Truth - to measure anything else. His teachings and His deeds. He said if you see me, you see my father. If I do not find a genocidal tyrant in Christ, then I do not find one in God. You are looking at the bible as truth, and measuring Christ against it. At least it seems this way to me.

  It is dizzifiying.

  It is simple. Christ first, everything else second. Christ is the truth. Nothing else claims to be that truth.

  In the end, you've defined everything according to what you feel is right.

  According to Christ. Not according to the bible. He is written about in the bible, yes. But He is MORE than the bible.

  Your guidance comes from inside yourself as you reject outside guidance you don't agree with. Your understanding is molded by your desire for Jesus to be who you approve of.

  Now who is telling someone else what they feel and what they do?

  That's fine. But it seems to be quite the muddy pool you draw your water from. I will never understand it.

  The pool I draw my water from is Christ. One pool. One truth. Mud comes in from everything else.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  NewChapter

  But it is the Christ that you have defined, as you have selectively chosen the traits that make sense to you. You keep saying teachings that conflict with Christ. But how do you know what teachings conflict with christ, when you only trust a portion of the teachings you draw from? You speak as if this should be obvious and easy to find, but what I see is an awful lot of editing. And the only guide you have for those edits comes from inside yourself---things that make sense and fit your understanding of a christ who, it seems, you have defined independent of any outside source. It's like magical knowledge. The entire concept of christ comes from a source you don't fully trust. Again, I don't even know how to work within such a structure.

  NC
• 

  tec

  But it is the Christ that you have defined, as you have selectively chosen the traits that make sense to you.

  How so? I don't understand what you are seeing.

  You keep saying teachings that conflict with Christ. But how do you know what teachings conflict with christ, when you only trust a portion of the teachings you draw from?

  I trust the writings about Christ. Which ones do you think I don't trust?

  You speak as if this should be obvious and easy to find, but what I see is an awful lot of editing.

  Again, I don't know what you mean.

  And the only guide you have for those edits comes from inside yourself---things that make sense and fit your understanding of a christ who, it seems, you have defined independent of any outside source.

  And again, lol. What editing?

  It's like magical knowledge. The entire concept of christ comes from a source you don't fully trust. Again, I don't even know how to work within such a structure.

  You say 'source' like its one source. It is not. Someone just slapped it together and called it one source. Why believe that? Why look at the bible that way, when there is no proof or even evidence that it should be looked at that way?

  I don't understand that.

  Peace,

  Tammy
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  cofty

  Lets try a simple example Tammy.

  Do you believe that Jesus said something along the lines of "Blessed are the meek since they will inherit the earth"?

  If so why do you think this particular verse is reliable? What do you base your judgement on?

  You can't base it on Christ since that would be a circular argument. Without the bible you wouldn't even know Jesus existed let alone anything he said. There is no surviving word of mouth regardig Jesus that doesn't depend on the bible and no content at all to the very few extra-biblical references.

  Can you understand our puzzle?
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  NewChapter

  So if you are not looking to the bible, where exactly are you looking? Jesus never wrote anything. Where do you draw your knowledge?