Changing the Goalposts

by braincleaned 88 Replies latest watchtower bible

adamah

TEC said-
No, love... I provided an example that I have of NOT listening. The goalposts have never moved.
"Not listening" vs "listening"? Jeez.....
So you're only throwing a bit of quibbling on top, AKA "distinction without a difference"?
Description: The assertion that a position is different from another position based on the language, when in fact, both positions are exactly the same -- at least in practical terms.
You do this one alot, too; in fact, the example #2 they provide on the site could've been taken from one of your posts:
Example #2:
We must judge this issue by what the Bible says, not by what we think it says or by what some scholar or theologian thinks it says.
Explanation: Before you say, “Amen!”, realize that this is a clear case of distinction without a difference. There is absolutely no difference here because the only possible way to read the Bible is through interpretation, in other words, what we think it says. What is being implied here is that ones own interpretation (what he or she thinks the Bible says) is what it really says, and everyone else who has a different interpretation is not really reading the Bible for what it says.
Of course, your boilerplate advice is that you "listen TO Jesus" and you tell others to do so, too, which is only just a slight variation on that same-ol' basic theme (except with a heavy pinch of "appeal to the Authority of Jesus" thrown in, just for good measure).
But back to the goalposts thing:
Braincleaned asked you for what evidence you have for God.
You responded:

My evidence for God is Christ, first and foremost
You then provided an example of hearing his voice ("It's in John, TEC....."), which sounds alot like a function of memory. SNR countered with HIS memory experience on a test.
To defend, you then moved the goal-posts, referring to some other nebulous episode which involves knowing something where memory wasn't a factor (which BTW, you didn't offer any details about).
And then when challenged on the "John" account, you act as if the account is different on the basis of NOT listening?
Sorry, love, but THAT'S moving the goalposts all up and down the field, and hopefully you can keep track of where you moved it to.
Adam
tec

A Christian's authority IS Christ, Adamah. I'm not even sure why that should ever be in question.
But I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing Adamah. Nothing you said above has anything to do with goalposts that you claim I changed.
Peace,
tammy
snare&racket

Tec if you want to convince me that your brain had not absorbed the fact that scripture was not in John, I simply don't believe you, of course it can , would and did !
If you were quoting the Quaran and naming books verses and chapters you had neve ever seen or heard of before.... THAT would be impressive and interesting and understabdably considered possibly supernatural.
What you describe is perfectly normal.
I have recalled things I have NOT learned but heard somwhere or seen a result somwhere and my brain recalled and processed it from an abyss.
You would only have to have heard one JW say the book of John and verse/chapter before reading it for your brain to log it in.... or to have read it once before, no miracle at all!
If you disagree, you significantly underestimate your brain and seriously underestimate the standards for what most would consider a supernatural miracle!
Even if you didn't know it was in John, your brain could have guessed by deduction, I doubt it in this example, but I used to be able to find scriptures in the bible based on context. I.e. you know it wasn't likely OT, you know it isnt Revelation etc etc etc....... You are down to a handful of books already....
But ignoring all that, it is VERY likely your brain recalled it Tec, come on you must know that even if it is a hard pill to swallow.
We should never underestimate coincidence either..........ever ever ever....
When I went to Australia to visit my uncle for the first time, I got to my international (big) airport to leave, the person sat next to me in the huge depature lounge was also going to Australia..... wow, to the same region as me ...New South Wales ...wow. Just west of Sydney as I was....Wow, In the blue mountains as was I.... WOW !........ to a tiny little village with 5 shops called Robertson...WOW SAME AS ME!..... they were staying on Hoddle Street...... THE SAME AS ME !!! At this point we were in shock, I joked I am going to number 15 ha ha ha ha....
They replied..... NUMBER 17 !!!!
It goes one more step beyond odd.... Unbeknown to me, my uncle owned number 15 AND number 17 which he ran as a B&B, this couple were going to a wedding in the area and staying with my uncle........ JAW DROP !
Imagine if this set of coincidences were in a religious context.... would you believe it possible? It amazed me then as it does now, but I was ignorant of probability and the math (as I continue to be lol).
Likewise when things happen that we say would be impossible by chance, we very likely underestimated probability! We are not designed to appreciate probability well, we use intuitiion and pattern recognition, probability math requires far more calculation than a humans guesstimation. A good example is how many people you need in a room before according to probability, there is a good chance two people in the room will share a birthdate.... logic and intuition says there are 356 days, so at least 365 people, maybe a little more or less... but the answer is 23 (50% chance).
Or another good one, if you have three boxes, one with a juicy prize, if you select a box and another is removed (without the prize in) what is the best thing to do...Stick with your original box or change to the other? People assume it makes no difference, it is 50/50/.. but it is not ! It is ALWAYS better to change boxes and switch... according to probability!
(initially there is 1/3 probability, so your first box has a 33% chance of winning, with one box removed the other box now has a 50% of being the winner - i know even now most people doubt that and say they are both 50% but they are not... you can test it out with repeated attempts and it works out, the switched box is more often the winner than the origina one chosen)
Snare x
Jeffro

tec:
Snare, you are speaking of memory recall of things formerly learned and stored? I'm not arguing with that... or suggesting that this IS that. But that could not be an explanation of things that you had NOT learned, because no where did you ever learn such things... ever... and you know this, even if others do not believe it.
Yeah... because you couldn't possibly have previously known that a certain Bible verse was located in the book of John.
Jeffro

snare&racket:
It goes one more step weirder.... Unbeknown to me, my uncle owned number 15 AND number 17 which he ran as a B&B, this couple were going to a wedding in the area!
The fact that number 17 was commercially available as holiday accommodation would make it slightly more likely that a random tourist would be going to that address.
snare&racket

Jeffro,
Yes buddy in fact there are many things that narrow the probability...
It was a major airport that did all international flights in my region
It was late at night so only people going to a few flights were there, including mine, austalia, on a large plane so lots of them
I assume we both searched the same places for the best deal in that time frame and both found the same flight
Sydney is in NSW and NSW is huge so that is not a massive coincidence.
My uncle was on the internet as a B&B in the blue mountains, but saying that it was arranged through word of mouth, but the wedding party in Australia were people who emigrated from the UK, specifically manchester, the city of my airport and the city of origin of the people I met.
It is still a HUGE coincidence, but nothing miraculous in nature. Had it been a new priest sat nest to his new parish neighbours at random the other side of the world on his leaving for the new foreign parish ... he would tell a tale of awaiting departure with trepidation, I am sure he would forever tell it as the time god sent his parishners to calm him and ease his journey, doubtless to prevent him changing his mind and not getting on the flight as Jonah attempted wiith Ninevah.... etc etc
lol
The truth is, I was young and nervous, I chose those people to sit next to as they looked friendly and asked them if I could stick around with them as we changed flights as I had not flown before so as to know where to go etc... Only after talking beyond both going to Australia did it all come out...
braincleaned

tec, I am worried about you. Hearing Jesus talk to you is not healthy.
I would get that checked, my friend. This is SERIOUS stuff.
Be well.

As Greg House says: "you talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic"
tec

Gentlemen, you have all missed the point of that example... in that it was an example of how easily people can dismiss His voice... in lieu of their own voice or the voice of another... and so do NOT listen or hear.
And yes, everyone has memory recall, including me.
But this was my Lord. Even if I did not recognize His voice (calm, quiet, sure)... He did not just remind me "John"... He also said to me, in words, "I have told you John. But if you must find it the hard way, then that is what you will do."
I am worried about you. Hearing Jesus talk to you is not healthy.
I thank you for your concern, but it is unnecessary, truly. I am not ill. There is no history of mental illness in my family. I have no tumors or the like of that (I have had tests for those becasue of headaches and history of aneurisms, etc).
I do have to say that it would seem kind of foolish to complain or fear something I ASKED to be able to have (ears TO hear; eyes TO see).
As Greg House says: "you talk to God, you're religious. God talks to you, you're psychotic"
You were a Christian for a long time, you said earlier, yes?
May I ask you then:
Who spoke to Saul (later Paul) on his road to Damascus?
Who spoke to Ananias and tole him to go TO Saul?
Who taught Paul from then on?
Who gave John his revelation?
Who spoke to Peter in his vision about eating unclean things... not to call anything unclean that the Lord had made clean?
What did John mean when he said, "Do not beleive every spirit, but test the spirits... because not every spirit is from God" ?
When you were a christian, how did you deal with those things? Or did you overlook them?
Peace,
tammy
Jeffro

tec:
Gentlemen, you have all missed the point of that example
It was a stupid 'example'. You second-guessed yourself about recalling a Bible verse, and that's all. There was absolutely nothing remarkable about the 'example'. When a person initially thinks of a correct answer but then chooses an incorrect answer instead, it doesn't mean the correct answer came from 'Jesus'.
But this was my Lord.
You gave an entirely mundane 'example', and then made the above assertion. Your assertion has no basis whatsoever, and there is no compelling reason to believe that you 'heard' anything other than your own thoughts.
I have no tumors or the like of that (I have had tests for those becasue of headaches and history of aneurisms, etc).
If you have a history of aneurysms, it should be of immediate concern if you are experiencing auditory hallucinations.
However, from what you've described, your 'hearing' of the voice of 'your lord' seems more like fantasising about your own self-talk rather than genuine auditory hallucinations.
adamah

TEC said:
Gentlemen, you have all missed the point of that example... in that it was an example of how easily people can dismiss His voice... in lieu of their own voice or the voice of another... and so do NOT listen or hear.
And yet again, TEC is moving the goalpost, as if using any excuse to deliver her canned pre-recorded speech, regardless of if it "fits" or not.
You were asked by braincleaned to provide a specific example of YOUR evidence for God:
Braincleaned said-

Tec — you have perked my curiosity! What is your evidence for your God.
What possible proof can you offer that is not offered by other's faith in other gods? What evidence against other gods could you have that is different and superior to the arguments against yours? I mean, please give me logical and/or empirical evidence.
You responded with your "John" example.
Now you seemingly deny it was meant to serve as evidence for your God (above), since you're now redefining what the example was meant to show. That IS moving the goal-post.
(And even though I've explained it as clearly as I can, and even cut-and-paste your and others' words from prior posts, NO, I really don't expect you to be able to recognize or acknowledge your wrong-doing here, since that inability to see the harm it causes others is WHY people move goal-posts; it's a coping mechanism, an unconscious strategy to shield themselves as a means to deny personal responsibility; just like hearing voices in one's head seemingly makes people believe they have the right to deny the perspective of others, as if they don't even exist.)
Adam

Changing the Goalposts

Share this