Changing the Goalposts

by braincleaned 88 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  cofty

  Here are some possiblities that are far more likely than inventing supernatural stories.

  Who spoke to Saul (later Paul) on his road to Damascus?

  He was starting to feel guilt about persecuting christians. On the raod to Damascus he had an epilectic incident. Since it was normal to ascribe epilepsy to spirits Saul interpreted it as coming from god rather than a demon.

  Who spoke to Ananias and tole him to go TO Saul?

  Nobody. Saul sought out the local christian leader to talk about his conversion. Perhaps word got to Ananias first and he sought our Saul. One of those details that are lost in the retelling of the story. Even the various accounts of Saul's conversion in the NT can't agree on whether or not the man with Saul heard voices.

  Who gave John his revelation?

  Magic mushrooms.

  Who spoke to Peter in his vision about eating unclean things...

  Nobody. He did what you do. He interpreted his internal conversation as coming from above.
• 

  adamah

  Hearing voices wasn't uncommon in the past: many humans did hear voices, and still DO hear voices, and explains why the Bible serves as a powerful magnet for, and speaks so strongly to, voice-hearers. It's fascinating to consider the Bible as a tradition of those who heard voices and experienced visual hallucinations, combined with the power of suggestion.

  (video on Princeton psychologist Julian Jaynes' theory of the bicameral mind).

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RvTDlS44fE

  Adam
• 

  snare&racket

  Most patients appreciate the difference between a memory being promoted by the brain or an external voice, if they sincerely insist it was an external voice, talking to one's dictor is important if not essential, in all seriousness.

  Auditory Hallucinations

  The most common type of auditory hallucinations in psychiatric illness consists of voices. Voices may be male or female, and with intonations and accents that typically differ from those of the patient. Persons who have auditory hallucinations usually hear more than one voice, and these are sometimes recognized as belonging to someone who is familiar (such as a neighbor, family member, or TV personality) or to an imaginary character (God, the devil, an angel). Verbal hallucinations may comprise full sentences, but single words are more often reported.

  Voices that comment on or discuss the individual’s behavior and that refer to the patient in the third person were thought by Schneider13 to be first-rank symptoms and of diagnostic significance for schizophrenia. Studies show that approximately half of patients with schizophrenia experience these symptoms.14

  Auditory hallucinations feature prominently in many psychiatric disorders. It has been estimated that approximately 75% of people with schizophrenia experience auditory hallucinations. These hallucinations are also relatively common in bipolar disorder (20% to 50%), in major depression with psychotic features (10%), and in posttraumatic stress disorder (40%).2

  Not all auditory hallucinations are associated with mental illness, and studies show that 10% to 40% of people without a psychiatric illness report hallucinatory experiences in the auditory modality.3,4 A range of organic brain disorders is also associated with hallucinations, including temporal lobe epilepsy; delirium; dementia; focal brain lesions; neuroinfections, such as viral encephalitis; and cerebral tumors.5 Intoxication or withdrawal from substances such as alcohol, cocaine, and amphetamines is also associated with auditory hallucinations.

  - See more at:

  http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/schizophrenia/auditory-hallucinations-psychiatric-illness/page/0/1#sthash.2gVj6p3F.dpuf
• 

  tec

  Here is my post, breaking up the evidence... from the example I gave about not listening.

  Evidence:

  My evidence for God is Christ, first and foremost (though I never did not believe).

  That would be the Christ who is recognized by His sheep as the Truth, by the truth He speaks... and the Christ who DOES speak even now, TO many (including me) as the Spirit.

  (Able to speak to many as the Spirit, as opposed to when He was a flesh and blood man, limited as flesh and blood men are limited... so that now He is not so limited and can speak to anyone, anywhere. Though just as in his physical time here, some people hear and recognize his voice... and some do not).

  I could speak about my journey. (I do have a thread from a couple years back on evidence of God, though I have learned much from my Lord since then as well.) Of having always known and experienced God... so that I know I was not born an atheist (as some like to claim we all are). I did not always know what to think about Him though. But I heard truth in Christ and His teaching... and of course I love because Christ loved me first. But I followed because I loved Him, from his teachings (though that love has grown, become more real, since I have come to know HIM, rather than just about Him through his teachings)... and later I asked for ears to hear Him when I learned that He does and IS speaking because He truly is alive.

  And it is pretty hard to doubt someone once you have heard them speaking to you.

  Example of not listening:

  though also easy to dismiss his voice or block Him out as something else (instinct, your own voice, a random thought, even as some other spirit), etc, if you do not know Him or do not want to hear or accept what He has said, for whatever reason, including that you might be too caught up in your 'own' know-it-all-ness. I have done this even knowing that He speaks... and I have to shake my head at myself, because I know better... but I am too busy doing my own thing, or relying upon myself.

  Example:

  I was searching for a passage I needed for something (that I will not go into here), and I wondered what book it was in. The 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' passage. My Lord said to me, "John". But I just rode over His voice... because I was too busy listening to my own reasoning. I knew that this passage is one that was not in the earliest manuscripts, so perhaps added somewhere down the line... and I always think of John as the most reliable. So I shook my head, and decided... Matthew (or Mark), because I remembered that one is supposed to be based roughly off the other. So perhaps it was in the larger version... Matthew. I searched Matthew, found nothing. I heard again, the quiet voice that is my Lord, "John". I knew He spoke and also paid no attention at the same time, figuring it must be Mark and I got them mixed up. So I search Mark. Nope. Well, perhaps it is in Luke... because Luke investigated matters and interviewed people so it might be something that he wrote in that no one else had in. So I start to look it up (and by now, having heard John twice and ignoring that, I am not really expecting to find anything in Luke, and yet I decide to go there anyway)

  I then hear, "I have told you John. But if you must find it the hard way, then that is what you will do."

  No anger in that at all, to be clear. Just a sort of 'sigh... go on then'... (sort of like how you would give to your own child who is ignoring the truth you have given to help them, to do it their way instead) And of course the passage is in John. The one place I was SURE by my own reasoning that it would NOT be. Exactly opposite of what I thought.

  Except in rare instances (Paul, formerly Saul of Tarsus), Christ does not intrude or force others to hear Him, as He also did not do this when He lived. He preached, He spoke, He told the Truth, He taught, He guided... as a man; and does the same as the Spirit. His voice is quiet. You have to listen. You have to quiet yourself - and all those voice of men and religion around you - and pay attention. He also speaks only truth, and man is not any better at accepting truth he does not want to hear now, than he was two thousand years ago.

  Some evidence/reasoning that I find compelling that might be used in an argument for God:

  There are other arguments to be made for God... though these arguments would be for the spiritual, of some sort, and not a specific God. Such as that every civilization... isolated or not... from the very beginning and onward... has sought the spiritual. Every single one of them. Heard that calling. Men seek the spiritual... because the spiritual exists... I would go farther than that, because every man IS spirit ("underneath" these vessels), so that it is part of us to seek what we (the spirit, the man on the inside) recognizes and knows. I think that is quite compelling as evidence in an argument for God.

  Now, I have explained three times that the example was in regard to NOT listening. I have broken it up here so that you can see. So that even if I was unclear to begin with... I have, again, explained three times now.

  You guys can continue to think that you can tell me what I meant... rather than listen to what I am telling you I meant... but you are only fooling yourselves. I am the one who said it... I gotta think I know a little bit more than you as to my meaning.

  You can blame me for being unclear, and I can accept responsibility for that... but this has been explained three times now, so this is not an excuse any longer.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Cofty, I was not asking about what you think NOW, as an atheist (I was actually asking braincleaned because of the quote he wrote, but thanks for answering anyway). I was asking what you thought formerly, as one who professed to be a christian, and an evangelical, of those verses.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  I was asking what you thought formerly, as one who professed to be a christian, and an evangelical, of those verses.

  As an evangelical I valued faith. I thought it was a virtue to beleive incredible things without evidence. Therefore I took it on face value that Paul, Peter, John et al were communing with divine beings.

  How embarrassing!
• 

  tec

  Did you think that this only applied to them, and that Christ did not speak to people NOW?

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Jeffro

  tec:

  Now, I have explained three times that the example was in regard to NOT listening.

  Nothing of what you provided as 'evidence' constitutes evidence of anything at all. But back to your statement above...

  If you occasionally second-guess yourself, that makes you just like everyone else.

  If you like to fantasise that some of your self-talk is actually Jesus, that makes you a little naive.

  If you 'know' that a supernatural all-knowing entity answers questions for you, and you sometimes ignore its advice, that makes you a special kind of stupid.

  (Though one would think that 'your lord' should probably be doing something more worthwhile than trying to help you locate scriptures that you already know about. Especially when he would already have known that you were going to ignore him. )
• 

  tec

  Do you not continue to answer your children's questions or give them advice, even knowing that they are going to ignore you? Because once all is said and done, they will remember what you told them, and they will slowly (or quickly, depending upon the child), come to trust your voice and your wisdom?

  The example here is not perfect, because parents are as flawed as any other person. So sometimes the advice or answers ARE wrong. But that is not so with Christ.

  Love would have one GIVE... what the person who receives does with that is up to them.

  Peace,

  tammy