by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult
@Frazzled - ok thank you.
@jgnat - but I (an Islamophobe, supposedly) recognise that the majority of muslims are peaceful. I, too, recognise religious freedom.
Don't worry, you're not being oppressed. Islamophobe is thrown around much more frequently than oikophobe anyway.
Modern Muslims recognise that much of the Sharia Law is no longer applicable to modern life
-Frazzeled
This is circular reasoning. You're merely defining the term "Modern Muslims" as those who rejcect Sharia Law. In reality all you're saying is that those who reject Sharia Law - reject Sharia Law.
Even in "progressive" countries like the United Kingdom over 40% of Muslims think there should be Sharia Law. And 58% think that people who insult or criticize Islam should be prosecuted. Even worse, 1 in 3 Muslim students in the UK support killing in the name of Islam. These are not the views of the fringe. These are mainstream.
Another interesting phenomenon is that Simon has been saying: "Prove that Islam doesn't support the violent passages in the Quran!" - so I do that and then the response is well because of the muslim version of theocratic warfare you can't believe any moderate muslim statement. So there is no point in debating you because nothing I can say is going to change your view because you have decided that you and you alone really know what moderate muslims think and nothing I can tell you to the contrary will change that. So this pretense of a debate is a complete and utter waste of time.
Your reasoning obviously convinces you but it maybe isn't as good a "proof" of something as you imagine it is.
It is totally compatibe for someone to support the violent passages in the Quran and at the same time condemn the violence being acted out. So the condemnation does to prove the lack of support. What I'm saying is that it would be better and clearer if people comdemned the ideas behind the acts and not just the acts themselves.
That is where people's definitions of "moderate muslim" diverge because there are lots of mainstream muslims, possibly the majority, who do support those beliefs as being the divine word of god whether they themselves want to act them out or not.
Also, if you accuse *me* of deciding what moderate muslims believe and you say I'm wrong then doesn't that mean that you are also deciding what they believe?
I have facts on my side - the surveys done by asking them. You just have a bit of political correct wishful thinking.
The overwhelming majoirty of educated urban muslims are deeply resistant to sharia law.
Please provide evidence. The surveys show that this is incorrect so the basis of your entire argument would be flawed.
Moderate mainstream muslims believe in an extremist ideology because it is an intrinsic teaching of the faith. The ones who do not are not really muslims.
I must say, just the difficulty people have in trying to clearly show that the majority of mulsims don't hold and support extremist views from the quran is evidence that there is a problem.
It should be easy to show. It's easy to show that the overwhelming majority of christians don't support the barbarism of the old testament which is why any attempts to use that argument fizzle out very quickly. The same goes for many other groups - sure, you can point to a few extremists who happen to be part of any religious denomination but it's clear that the religion is often not the driving motivator behind the extremist.
Islam is.
Even in "progressive" countries like the United Kingdom over 40% of Muslims think there should be Sharia Law. And 58% think that people who insult or criticize Islam should be prosecuted. Even worse, 1 in 3 Muslim students in the UK support killing in the name of Islam. These are not the views of the fringe. These are mainstream.
Shocking. I wonder where they learnt those beliefs ...
Simon to your above post, thats my point about my earlier post and my friendship with Malik. But it got lost in the shuffle of debate. I believe the driving force behind extriminisam is not a book but people.
This issue is complicated, and not conducive to the types of arguments found on most boards.
Most muslims are not engaged in violence, but adhere to a book that promotes it.
Most muslims are not engaged in violence, but the majority of countries that are majority muslim persecute other religions.
Muslims exist in peace in the US, but Islam does not tolerate criticism of the prophet or allah; criticism of religions and god is protected free speech in the US.
How to reconcile these issues?
I don't know.
'How to reconcile these issues?'
They're not reconcilable. Muslims need to have the maturity and self-awareness to reform their religion as soon as possible.
Maybe i am off base here.
But i used to work for a " Sheik" he was muslim and part of the " Royal Family" in Saudi Arabia.
His sister married the Sheik and her brother unqualifoed gave me a job managing all the " Sheiks" many London homes.( they were all empty)
Anyway none of these people gave a f....k about religion. They were muslim and it was all a game...my point being they were top of the game with power and totally hypocritical to the religipn . Ramadam was fun it was a month in whoch i would never see them. Even the rich had to be in " Saudi" during ramadan.
My point is these extremists, are not the wealthy of the wealthy muslims...and they are not approved by the very top of muslim society. So i think we can make of a book our leadership, and most dont buy in to it.
