Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease

by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult

• 

  KateWild

  LUHE,

  Like I said in my last post, most translations don't use the term infidel, so your question is wrongly placed. You question still stands because you are not satisfied with the answer, you want to confirm your bias that a loving verse does not exist. If you really wanted to know what the Koran teaches you would read it instead of asking others to find quotes for you. I feel you are not really interested in what the whole Koran teaches you just want to cherry pick scriptures that prove your point that Islam is bad. It's called confirmation bias.

  If really wanted to know if a scripture exists you would take the time to investigate yourself. It's clear you are not interested.

  Kate xx
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  barry - "We do know how to interpret the Koran because if there is a contradiction in meaning of a verse the latter verses are abrogated by the former verses." And how do we know this? Or are you a mufassir (an interpreter of the Quran? I think one problem here is that people who have no idea how to interpret the Quran are setting themselves up as experts and assuming there is one single interpretation. I thought you might find the article on Quranic Interpretation from the Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc. interesting as it shows that is not the case:

  "Generally it is believed by many, if not all Muslims and in particular by non-Muslims that there is one authentic interpretation of the Qur'an. It is far from true. Even the closest companions of the Prophet (PBUH) differed from each other in understanding various verses. Also, since there is no concept of official church in Islam no one interpretation can command following of a majority of Muslims, let alone all Muslims. There is hardly any major issue on which Muslim 'ulama do not differ. These differences, more often than not are due to different interpretations of the Qur'anic text.

  It is because of this that every sect or school of thought has its own orthodox and liberal followers. There is Shi'ah orthodoxy or Sunni orthodoxy, Isma'ili orthodoxy or Bohra orthodoxy, Hanafi orthodoxy or Shafi'i orthodoxy and so on. It is not only this, there are now scholars with modern and liberal thinking and are looking at the Qur'anic text from modern and liberal perspectives. And some feminists or those working for empowerment of women read the Qur'an from the feminist point of view.

  There are various reasons for this. Firstly, the Qur'anic text is very rich and can be understood in ways more than one. Secondly its language often tends to be symbolic or allegorical and hence these symbols and allegories carry rich social and cultural meanings and its shades of meaning can change with different socio-cultural backgrounds. Thus, often social and cultural factors can often play an important role in understanding of the Qur'anic text. Thus, those scholars who have been brought up in modern societies with its own intellectual traditions tend to understand the text differently from those who studied the text under medieval ethos and its own intellectual traditions.

  Now the orthodox 'ulama of course insist on medieval understanding of the text as final and irrevocable whereas modern scholars, of no less intellectual integrity and knowledge, insist that there can be a multiple understanding of the holy text. Today this debate between the orthodox and modern scholars has been going on practically in every Islamic country."
• 

  LoveUniHateExams

  @KateWild

  Stop the pointless quibbling over the term 'infidel'. It detracts from the debate.

  I admit 'loving' verses exist in the Quran.

  My question was, and still is, are there any verses that explicitly say forgive/pardon/show mercy to the unbeliever. Not 'have friendship with a view to the unbeliever converting to Islam'! Please stop mischaracterising my position and question.

  Thank you.
• 

  Simon

  Frazzled: for all the talk and dancing around there are verses that are very clear and difficult to interpret in any other way when they talk about beheading non believers.
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  LUHE - Kate answered your question and I previously posted on the parts of the Quran that emphasize the sanctity of life, including for non-believers. Are you suggesting that unless the verse is in the exact words you set down it is insufficient? A tad pedantic really and maybe another example of black and white thinking or an attempt by you to narrow the debate to suit your purposes, which is a tactic you have employed before. Fraz
• 

  KateWild

  My question was, and still is, are there any verses that explicitly say forgive/pardon/show mercy to the unbeliever. Not 'have friendship with a view to the unbeliever converting to Islam'! -LUHE

  You're not listening because you're bias. My post 4613 gives one scripture that highlights love to enemies, that is it. I am satisfied I have answered your question. You're making extra stuff up to tighten your criteria of your question. You are clearly not interested in the Koran, you're question is disingenuous.

  Personally I don't think the Koran is something I would live my life by anyway, there are too many contractions and it's too sexist, so I am not defending the Koran, just saying there is everything in it if you take the time to look.

  Kate xx
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  So Simon - you read Arabic fluently? Once again you choose to take the selective literalist approach to suit your position (and I would say prejudice). Below is an article written in 2012:

  Does the Quran Command The Muslims To Go And Behead Non-Believers?

  By samialathar • July 20, 2012

  One often-quoted verse used against Muslims is that of Surah 8, ayat 12. The verse reads as:

  008.012 
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

  So Islamophobes claim that this verse proves that Islam promotes terrorism and that the Quran orders Muslims to go and chop people’s heads off along with their fingertips.

  However so, had they bothered to do some basic research, they would find out that this verse was referring to a SPECIFIC BATTLE. The verse is talking about a battle that took place, the battle of Badr.

  Al-Maududi’s introduction to this Surah writes:

  Name

  The Surah takes its name AL-ANFAL (The Bounties) from the first verse.

  The Period of Revelation

  It was revealed in 2 A. H. after the Battle of Badr, the first battle between Islam and kufr. As it contains a detailed and comprehensive review of the Battle, it appears that most probably it was revealed at one and the same time. But it is also possible that some of the verses concerning the problems arising as a result of this Battle might have been revealed later and incorporated at the proper places to make it a continuous whole. At any rate, in the whole Surah there is nothing that might show that it is a collection of a couple of discourses, that have been patched up together. (http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/maududi/mau8.html)

  Let see what Ibn Kathir’’s commentary had to say regarding this verse:

  Allah commands the Angels to fight and support the Believers

  Allah said next,

  ((Remember) when your Lord revealed to the angels, “Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed.”)

  This is a hidden favor that Allah has made known to the believers, so that they thank Him and are grateful to Him for it. Allah, glorified, exalted, blessed and praised be He, has revealed to the angels — whom He sent to support His Prophet, religion and believing group — to make the believers firmer. Allah’s statement,

  (I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved.) means, `you — angels — support the believers, strengthen their (battle) front against their enemies, thus, implementing My command to you. I will cast fear, disgrace and humiliation over those who defied My command and denied My Messenger, f

  (so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.) strike them on their foreheads to tear them apart and over the necks to cut them off, and cut off their limbs, hands and feet. It was said that,

  (over the necks) refers to striking the forehead, or the neck, according to Ad-Dahhak and `Atiyyah Al-`Awfi. In support of the latter, Allah commanded the believers,

  (So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah’s cause) those who disbelieve, smite (their) necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, take them as captives).) [47:4]

  Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said, “In the aftermath of Badr, the people used to recognize whomever the angels killed from those whom they killed, by the wounds over their necks, fingers and toes, because those parts had a mark as if they were branded by fire.” Allah said,

  (and smite over all their fingers and toes.)

  Ibn Jarir commented that this Ayah commands, “O believers! Strike every limb and finger on the hands and feet of your (disbelieving) enemies.” Al-`Awfi reported, that Ibn `Abbas said about the battle of Badr that Abu Jahl said, “Do not kill them (the Muslims), but capture them so that you make known to them what they did, their ridiculing your religion and shunning Al-Lat and Al-`Uzza (two idols).” Allah than sent down to the angels,

  (Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes.)

  In that battle, Abu Jahl (may Allah curse him) was killed along with sixty-nine men. `Uqbah bin Abu Mua`it was captured and then killed, thus bring the death toll of the pagans to seventy,

  So as you can see, these events were taking place during a battle, and the stipulations of these commands were meant for battle. Now during the course of a battle in those days you would aim for the neck to get an immediate blow, and off course you would also aim for their fingers, taking out the fingers of the opposing soldier would neutralize him as he wouldn’t be able to properly carry or use his sword anymore. That’s how battles were fought back then, end of story."
• 

  cofty

  Hatred and vitriol spews from every page of the quoran.

  It is a disgusting facist diatribe. Your ability to find a nice-sounding verse chages nothing.

  Until moderate muslims have the balls to reject the inspiration of quran and hadith nothing can move forward.
• 

  cofty

  So as you can see, these events were taking place during a battle, and the stipulations of these commands were meant for battle.

  A battle in which ones enemies were to be identified as those who reject the ramblings of Mo - "their ridiculing your religion"

  Where is the passage in the quran that says that none of the poreceeding is in any way normative for future generations of muslims?

  If so much of it only applied in a very restricted historical context why are 21st century western childrem still bullied into learning it word for word?
• 

  Frazzled UBM

  cofty - have you read every page of the Quran (I think that very unlikely) or are you just sounding off again like when you asserted with great authority (based on your prejudices and without any conceivable evidence) that Muhamid was a pedo? How do you reconcile what you say, with what Kate said about the verses she actually read? Fraz