Qcmbr... I was told that my bringing up the facts from the 1950's I was told multiple times that such info is not relevant since it was so long ago. My info was deemed invalid.
Is that no longer the case
Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease
by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult
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Qcmbr
Confused - I think your contextual use of evidence is what some people reject not really the 50 year thing. When you talk about the West you use an incredibly high standard (you mention police letting dogs maul someone as a criticism of the West and a lynchpin of why the West cannot have any moral right to act - I'll take a flyer and guess you are talking about the recent changes regarding equal racial rights for your dog mauling anecdote) but you don't seem to value the very immediate daily murders (worse than a mauling) occuring in the name of Islam. On one hand you suggest that you can't judge Islam by the actions of the minority while you simultaneously judge the West by the actions of a minority. Now contextually the West coming to terms with racism is actually a really important and praiseworthy thing (yay the West) while the emergence of a huge fighting force willing to die for Allah who have made impresive miltary steps towards statehood is the tip of an iceberg regarding the intentions of Islam when unresisted.
I get the impression that you do have a racial bee in your bonnet that is occluding your balance on this topic, perhaps one day there is a story you are willing to share regarding some wrong(s) that you experienced. I'm sure you will garner much support and sympathy.
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myelaine
confused...
the use of violence in advancing the aim of global submission to islam isn't confined to ISIS. (neither are the actions of israel an attempt at global domination of all religion, economics or judicial systems) THAT is the stated objective of the "prophet" in the koran. Terrorism is a TACTIC or strategy of jihad employed and justified by mohammad. terrorism is a means to an end and right now those who have allowed it to take root in their minds are being used as a diversion...the USA has been fooled into thinking they are taking part in a "war on terrorism" when in actuallity they are being drawn into the center of a battle without recognizing the only clear opponent is the islamic ideology.
the koran (and hadiths) is an open book for everyone to see. We can read what it says about abrogation of text, we can read that it is only apostates that pick and choose what to "believe" from the book. There is no room for western muslims to somehow edit the book to better suit their sensibilities so that all the other muslims around the world will fall in line with their way of thinking.
like I said, if moderate western muslims TRUELY want to distance themselves from AND make a stand for what they SAY they believe in then the only option is to repudiate the koran.
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confusedandalone
Qcmbr - I stated that in the 20th Century the KKK which was a Christian group had a peak of 4 million members.
The carried out crimes just as brutal or even worse than ISIS. The were in Congress and in effect tried to promote a variety of laws that removed the rights of everyone who was not of their kind(please do not confuse this with only blacks and Native Americas and Jews, they hated anyone not in line with their Philosophy... similar to how ISIS operates).
There are still members of our government who are part of the KKK or other white supremacist groups. Some are police officers in the USA etc.
The USA never decided to make it illegal to be a christian because the KKK was an extremist and terrorist organization. They never even made it illegal to be a member of the KKK.
So how can anyone in turn make it illegal to be a member of Islam in this country when you only have a group in the middle east that is killing people like a bunch of savages. Just because you think some of them are here or will come here? This sounds fair to you? It is not even logical.
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So somehow you think the information above is invalid and of no use to this discussion because it happened so long ago?
What is weird is that you compare the government preventing people in the USA from marrying multiple women in the 1890's to deporting people or criminalizing peoples who are Muslims. I would think in the context of the discussion my points are just as valid as yours and more recent to boot.
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confusedandalone
myelaine....
"the use of violence in advancing the aim of global submission to islam isn't confined to ISIS"
again not all or even most of 1.4 billion muslim are bent on global submission. A very small portion of them are. SO there is no need to criminalize people for it.
"neither are the actions of israel an attempt at global domination of all religion, economics or judicial systems"
you are comparing a country to ISIS. ISIS is a movement that although they are large are not an actual country. Everyone in the region wants them stopped. We can see this by the numbers of Muslims who speak out against it. I have seen far more Muslims crying for them to stop or be stopped than I see of those who want them to continue. They are killing mostly MUSLIMS. Let us be honest if we look at what is happening in Israel they are committing horrible atrocities against people of all sorts as well. It is in their Holy book to destroy anyone touching the promised land or gods going to do it. So they should be decrying the bible. Ask a Jew to condemn everything in the Torah and see if the response is any different to that of a Muslim. The Moderates on either side will have an answer.
Terrorism is a TACTIC or strategy of jihad employed and justified by mohammad. terrorism is a means to an end and right now those who have allowed it to take root in their minds are being used as a diversion.
Again Israel was redrawn on a map in an area where people were currently residing without any choice of their own. Why did they not say, "Please don't do this.. it is not our land and it would not be right. " Because their god commanded it was thiers so they used thier holybook to justify creating a state as well. Also there have been Israeli terrorist groups as well. Right wing whackadoos who are not willing to leave out the violence of their god.
The USA has been fooled into thinking they are taking part in a "war on terrorism" when in actuallity they are being drawn into the center of a battle without recognizing the only clear opponent is the islamic ideology.
You really believe the US has been fooled. Fooled by what has been referred to as an illiterate group of stone-aged people who have contributed nothing to society... they were fooled???
the koran (and hadiths) is an open book for everyone to see. We can read what it says about abrogation of text, we can read that it is only apostates that pick and choose what to "believe" from the book. There is no room for western muslims to somehow edit the book to better suit their sensibilities so that all the other muslims around the world will fall in line with their way of thinking.
The bible also says no one is to add or subtract from the words of the bible. Yet every christian group does. Do we really need to touch on the violence in the bible? You realize that many Muslims in the middle East yes whole countries are conservative and are still considered Muslims. I have no idea why no one will accept this fact. Muslim countries that have female presidents while there are hardlined muslims that do not let women drive in others. So obviously there are alot of Muslims who have a form of Islam that better suits the current needs. I saw homosexuals in Turkey and they were not mobbed and beheaded, yet I see homosexuals here get beat to death in Manhattan. I am sure some RADICAL muslim in Turkey has killed homosexuals just like I am sure some moderate people in the USA do not eevn think about it.
"like I said, if moderate western muslims TRUELY want to distance themselves from AND make a stand for what they SAY they believe in then the only option is to repudiate the koran."
So you want Muslims in moerate arab countries to repudiate the entire Quran because Muslims in other countries or the few in thier own still hol dto stone age reasoning.
Would you want moderate Christians in the US to repudiate the Bible because Rightwing Christians arre using the bible as a means to promote violence and killing?
Would you expect a Moderate JEW to repudiate the Bible and its insanity beccause you have hardline Jews in Israel who are acting like savages as well?
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Qcmbr
I dont think you would have anyone here genuinely disagree that the KKK was a dark moment in history and I think you should draw a lot of comfort from tbe fact that people across all cultures and creeds united as one , inspired by great men and women, to erase the underpinings of this movement. One of the defining moments of the American people was also a war fought with at least one major factor being slave rights. Moving onto ideology its a criticism made often by many posters here that the bible doesnt condemn slavery and was indeed used to justify it. In this respect we agree but somehow America and American christianity moved on, sometimes using legal threats to drag reluctant christians like the mormons along and now racism is being fought on a united social front one racist at a time. My take from this discussion is that what worked in turning round an institutionally racist society should be utilised to move and neutralise a similarly destructive and immoral concept. A major difference is that christianity suffered from an omission of criticism of slavery whereas Islam has commands to perform brutality , war, persecution of women and the death penalty for freedom of speech. What took America almost its whole, young life to confront and turn the tide on was relatively much less religiously taught and socially ambitious than Islam is.
Islam is preaching and practising the evils of slavery (reduced freedoms, marking members of society as lesser than others, stealing the voice of many, threatening and actually killing those who escape, brutally punishing out of relation to arbitrary crimes, sexually abusing etc.) on its own people and threatening everyone else with a clear indication and statement of intent.
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confusedandalone
The point here is not about black and white and slavery and no slavery. The point here is that A right Wing Christian group here was allowed to run rampant for a long time. Yet no one decided to imprison or deport everyone who was a christian. People were smart enough to see that a group withina religion took their ideals to a point in which they were harming others so let us stop them.
So because ISIS a small part of Islam that is participating in these rabid killings exists we should deport or criminalize them all. I really can not see you personally going up to a muslim on the street and telling them this.
I have asked multiple times, do you really think you could walk up on the street to a random Muslim and tell them this.
" My take from this discussion is that what worked in turning round an institutionally racist society should be utilised to move and neutralise a similarly destructive and immoral concept." < --- not being antagonistic I just really want you to put yourself in the frame of mind you are out on main street and you walk up to a Muslim guy sipping coffee while playing with his son and then you proceed to explain to him why anyone adhering to his belief system should be made a criminal.
"My take from this discussion is that what worked in turning round an institutionally racist society should be utilised to move and neutralise a similarly destructive and immoral concept."
The issue is you want to force change on a nation. You can not force change. By trying to force change you create more terrorists.
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LoveUniHateExams
@confusedandalone - I agree with your comparison of KKK and ISIS. The KKK carried out terribly wicked, criminal acts not so long ago. I believe that elderly KKK members still at large who committed such crimes should be prosecuted and punished.
From what I've read about the KKK they disintegrated and survive today as splinter groups. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems they're not as strong or active as they used to be. If this is the case then they are not of immediate concern, unlike ISIS.
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Qcmbr
ISIS is pure Islam. Everything they do is by the book. The KKK had no such mandate nor could ever claim to speak for xianity. Christianity is a very broad church that has no working concept of brotherhood and one nation the same as Islam which had broadly split into only two organisations. As for forcing change Ive given some examples of where you can do it successfully. The reason mormonism didnt spawn a a bunch of anti american terrorists was because its core teachings give no impetus nor command to do so (despite extremists like Brigham Young spouting all sorts of racist, anti US rhetoric. ) Islam spawns terrorists everywhere it finds roots the moment it finds opposition (Salmon Rushdie wrote a book and ended up hiding for his life over it ) ands it is because its book demands it.
Sometimes you have to recognise poison without needing several sips to test it.
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confusedandalone
" From what I've read about the KKK they disintegrated and survive today as splinter groups. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems they're not as strong or active as they used to be. If this is the case then they are not of immediate concern, unlike ISIS."
The kkk still exists today and they are not as strong as they once were. The problem is that now the US has far more right-wing groups than ever and they are militarily trained, have stockpiles of weapons and are still very dangerous. Here in Florida it is not uncommon to see pickup trucks driving down the street with confederate flags on one side of the bed and a swastika or other form of Neo-Nazi flag. I shit you not.
A few exits from my home Flies the Worlds Largest Confederate Flag. There are still KKK rallies and NEO Nazi rallies still held here in the US. No one would even dare make them criminals and put them in jail, yet they are flying flags of another nation or flags from small groups who wanted to break off from the US. They have civil war reenactments in which they lament the lose of the South.
"The SPLC identified 926 hate groups active in 2008" and they are growing. They have cable access channels. They preach about the RaHoWa or racial holy war. THey do still commit violent acts but what is worse is the way they recruit kids to join them.
It is disgusting, HOWEVER being part of one of these groups is not illegal. These are people who have a horrific past. Pride themselves on being worse than the KKK. The religions are either Christian or some bastardized Norse religion. ISIS has not killed anyone IN the US yet.
These groups have killed people and they incite violence and hatred all the time. My point is they have every legal right to exist and propogate as long as they do not break laws as individuals. Why should a different set of rules be in place for Muslims