Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease

by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult

  • Simon
    Simon

    The violent OT scriptures are just descriptions of what ancient Israelites and/or Yahweh did - they're not commands for modern Jews to commit genocide. Some Quranic verses - slay the disbelievers, strike at their necks, etc - seem to be open-ended commands if read literally. This is the problem.

    Yes, the biblical god wants to do the killing himself now which is the christian belief. The islamic god wants his followers to do the killing for him.

    Neither god exists but one is way more dangerous than the other. At worse you just have Christians waiting for a rapture that will never happen but mostly not hurting anyone else and some do charitable work for others (not just people of their own faith).

    This notion that islam and christianity are the same is surely thoroughly debunked by now.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Imagine concentric circles of commitment to Islam.

    In the centre (let's call it zone 1) we have the psycopaths who kill non-muslims. They take Mo's commands seriously. Muslims are to take over the world by force through murdering infidels. These are the dangerous hard-core who need to be stopped by lethal force.

    In the next circle (let's call it zone 2) we have the Islamists. These also believe that Islam is destined to tak eover the world. They try to fulfill their ambition by increasing their numbers and influence in non-Muslim countries. They want sharia law to be imposed on everybody in the long term. They don't carry out terror attacks but neither do they condemn those who do - unless an attack is so odious as to hurt the cause. Islamists seek to influence political decisions, school policies and any aspects of public life they can access. Naive and misguided liberals are their unwitting allies.

    Further out again (let's call it zone 3) we have conservative Muslims. They don't believe in terrorism but they do take the quran absolutely seriously. They share Mo's attitude to women, apostates and homosexuals. Their wives cover their heads and possibly their faces in public. Think of them as being just like JWs. Compared to the psychos in zone 1 they are moderate but compared to any normal, rational 21st century person they are religious fanatics.

    Zones 1-3 include a large percentage of the 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. I don't know what percentage but it's a huge number.

    They are a problem. All of them. There must be no compromise with any of their dangerous beliefs.

    Beyond zone 3 there are many more laid-back westernised muslims. For them its about family and belonging to a shared culture rather than the content of their religion.

    All through this thread there are posters who think that saying somebody isn't in zone 1 is the same as showing that Islam isn't a problem. If only it was that simple.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @cofty - fantastic post.

    And to continue your analysis the muslims beyond zone 3 have no voice, and must never say what they really think.

    They are even in danger in Western countries what with 'honour killings', etc.

    Liberal and cultural christians are free to speak their mind, however.

  • cofty
    cofty

    LUHE - Did you mean beyond zone 3? Let's call it zone 4.

    They are afraid to speak out - and with good reason.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Here is a big difference bewteen Islam and christianity.

    Christians - even the nutters - are simply waiting for Jesus to come back and kill all the infidels. Their commission is to preach. That makes them a pain in the arse.

    Muslims have a commission to change the world by conversion. Convert or die is Mo's way. That makes them dangerous.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    @cofty - yes, the westernised muslims beyond zone 3 that have a shared cultural background.

    'convert or die' - dangerous indeed. I can see now why the West supported Saddam, Gaddafi and Mubarak until recently. It sounds racist to say it but so far, the Arabs don't seem to be able to do democracy. It's a choice between a dictator or toxic islamism. I know which is the lesser of the two evils.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Whan a country still has rampant abuse of power, nepotism, bibery and corruption and a judical system that is not fit for purpose, a sudden switch to democracy leads to chaos.

    See "Anocracy..."

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Of 6,200 verses in the Quran, only 350 relevant for law. Of the 350, only 180 are qati (absolutely certain—not open for debate). The rest are zanni (probable/assumed part of the Q, but disagreement on how they should be understood).

    Those that are qati must be examined in context to determine who and what problem is being addressed because it applies only within that context.

    Next, each verse must be examined chronologically, applying abrogation rules, which are as follows:

    1. Later Quran can abrogate a former Quran

    2. An Hadith never abrogates a Quran

    3. Hadith can abrogate a Hadith

    4. Quran never abrogates the Suna

    5. But might be Hadith of uncertain origin (uncertain)

    6. Replacing the rule but not the text

      1. Theory: God revealed an intermediate rule first. Later replaced with a different verse; text of first verse still part of Q.

        1. Simon et al., please notice that under this rule, IT DOESN’T MATTER IF IT’S PART OF THE QURAN—IT’S NULL/VOID AND NOT TO BE FOLLOWED. THAT’S WHY YOU DON’T HAVE MUSLIMS RUNNING AROUND SAYING ‘THAT’S NOT PART OF THE QURAN.’

    7. Replacing both rule and text

      1. When verse says no longer do X, but do Y, the X behavior could not have been only what M told them because that would be sunna, and sunna can’t replace Q. so X must have been based on a verse no longer extant. (Incomplete Quran theory)

      2. Only Q can replace Q

    Here is a classic example of how those who have not bothered to learn about Islam from credentialed authorities misinterpret it:

    Qur’an 9:29—FIGHT those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, [Please note that “the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book" is Christianity and “the Book” is the Bible. JT] UNTIL they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

    A middle-aged, non-Muslim, female poster asserts that the above-referenced verse allows for continued jihad. RADICAL Muslims would say that, but the following is how most Muslims interpret it and it demonstrates the approach I noted at the beginning.

    Question:

    Does verse 9:29 permit aggression against non-Muslims?

    Answer:

    In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

    The verse 9:29 is a command to fight the Byzantine Romans and other hostile powers who were planning an invasion against the Muslims in Arabia. In context, it is a distinct response to aggression, in particular the assassination of one of the Prophet’s ambassadors.

    -On the surface, this appears to be an open-ended command to fight non-Muslims until they are conquered. However, a fundamental principle of Quranic exegesis (tafseer) is that the verses must be understood in the context in which they were revealed (asbab an-nuzul) and in conjunction with other verses delineating the rules of warfare. –

    The expedition of Tabuk was preceded by the battle of Mu’tah which began when the emissary of the Prophet was assassinated while delivering a letter to a Roman ally.

    This was the first act of Roman aggression that further led to the expedition of Tabuk concerning which the verse 9:29 was revealed. The verse describes the aggressors as those “who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day,” because they committed this act of treachery. Executing emissaries from other countries is a war crime that could never be committed by those who sincerely believe in God.

    Therefore, this context must be understood when reading verse 9:29 so that we clearly know who should be fought, specifically the aggressors among the Jews and Christians and not all of them. Rather, many other verses of the Quran make clear that it is unlawful to initiate hostilities against other nations.

    http://www.faithinallah.org/on-interpretation-of-verse-929-and-the-battle-of-tabuk/#sthash.8FCvSZEM.dpuf

  • cofty
    cofty

    JT - That's nice but millions of Islamists and conservative Muslims don't agree with you.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Quran never abrogates the Suna [sic]

    How cuddly and inclusive is the Sunna?

    What does it teach about women, apostates, homosexuals, non-muslims?

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