‘scholar’:
The jokes on you for the said scholar is no joker.
Some typos there. Fixed it for you:
The joke’s on you for the sad joker is no scholar.
Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!
by BoogerMan 143 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Jeffro
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scholar
Vidqun
Scholar, there's your answer. The denouncement would start with Jehoiakim. He started off as a vassal of Egypt, but would then serve Nebuchadnezzar for three years. In 605 BCE crown prince Nebuchadnezzar would defeat the Egyptians. Shortly afterwards he would be made king, after the death of his father, Nabopolasar. During his accession year, during the days of Jehoiakim, he would start the deportation of Judahites, the first deportation of many. Here youths, sons of nobles and royalty, would be deported (Dan. 1:1, 3; cf. 2 Kings 20:18). The nations, including the Judahites, would serve the Babylonians seventy years. Their servitude would already have started in 608/607 BCE, during the reign of Jehoiakim (cf. 2 Kings 24:1, 2). That fulfills the denouncement of 70 years. Note, the land would pay off its Sabbaths, but it would not necessarily lay desolate for seventy years.
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The judgement and punishment of the Jews by means of Neb, the 70 years began during the reign of Zedekiah as shown by 2Chron. 36:11-16. It is correct that the prophecy or denouncement of the 70 years began earlier with the 4th year of Jehoiakim and the 1st year of Neb.-Jer. 25:1-2.
scholar JW
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scholar
Jeffro
The joke’s on you for the sad joker is no scholar.
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The said scholar has at least a couple of degrees whereas all that you have are some pretty coloured charts.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
‘scholar’:
The said scholar has at least a couple of degrees whereas all that you have are some pretty coloured charts.
I know you like the pretty colours, but you have to actually read the words too.
What’s the point of boasting about alleged degrees if you can’t even properly parse information.
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scholar
Jeffro
I know you like the pretty colours, but you have to actually read the words too.
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But the words must mean something and all that you have written is simply a rehash of GTR with pretty coloured charts.
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What’s the point of boasting about alleged degrees if you can’t even properly parse information.
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Writing on this forum requires the said scholar to present matters simply.as I get your attention.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
Notice how the apologist refuses to engage with the material.
But the words must mean something and all that you have written is simply a rehash of GTR with pretty coloured charts.
My analysis of 586 or 587 is not addressed in GTR, and my other pages were compiled before I’d even heard of GTR. (And the words still “mean something” irrespective of your false claim about GTR, if you’re not so dumb that you can’t get past the ‘pretty colours’.) So you’re just further demonstrating that you’re a liar. You’re entirely intellectually dishonest, and you’re afraid to directly consider information that challenges your predetermined beliefs. But other readers can see your blustering and your refusal to consider information presented.
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Duran
scholar, how foolish can you be...
Your WTS admits that Assyria, the second world power came to its end as a result of the 14th and 17th year of Babylonian king Nabopolassar with the fall of Nineveh and then Harran. They claim that that was the start of Babylon's domination period as the third world power. They claim that Babylon came to its end when it was overthrown by Medo-Persia and that is when Medo-Persia became the fourth world power.
[Insight - The fall of the empire. The Babylonian Chronicle B.M. (British Museum) 21901 recounts the fall of Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, following a siege carried out by the combined forces of Nabopolassar, the king of Babylon, and of Cyaxares the Mede during the 14th year of Nabopolassar (612 B.C.E.)...According to the same chronicle, in the 14th year of Nabopolassar (612 B.C.E.), Ashur-uballit II attempted to continue Assyrian rule from Haran as his capital city. This chronicle states, under the 17th year of Nabopolassar (609 B.C.E.): “In the month Duʼuzu, Ashur-uballit, king of Assyria, (and) a large [army of] E[gy]pt [who had come to his aid] crossed the river (Euphrates) and [marched on] to conquer Harran.” (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, p. 305; brackets and parentheses theirs.) Actually, Ashur-uballit was trying to reconquer it after having been driven out. This record is in harmony with the account relative to the activity of Pharaoh Nechoh recorded at 2 Kings 23:29, which activity resulted in the death of King Josiah of Judah (c. 609 B.C.E.). This text states that “Pharaoh Nechoh the king of Egypt came up to the king of Assyria by the river Euphrates”—evidently to help him. “The king of Assyria” to whom Nechoh came may well have been Ashur-uballit II. Their campaign against Haran did not succeed. The Assyrian Empire had ended.]
[w65 6/1 - Babylon succeeded Assyria as the Third World Power.]
[Insight- Particularly was this domination manifest during the seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E. when Nabopolassar, a native of Chaldea, and his successors, Nebuchadnezzar II, Evil-merodach (Awil-Marduk), Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and Belshazzar, ruled the Third World Power, Babylon. That dynasty came to its end when “Belshazzar the Chaldean king was killed.”]
[w55 2/1 - The outstanding Absolute date for the B.C. period of the Hebrew Scriptures is that for the fall of Babylon as the capital city of the third world power at the hands of Cyrus, king of the Persians, October 13, 539 B.C., Julian calendar (or October 7 by our present Gregorian calendar), which event is referred to at Isaiah 45:1. This date is made Absolute by reason of the archaeological discovery and deciphering of the famous Nabunaid Chronicle, which itself gives a date for the fall of Babylon and which figure specialists have determined equals October 13, 539 B.C., according to the Julian calendar of the Romans.]
609 Nabopolassar 17th year - Fall of Harran
605 Nabopolassar 21st year and Nebuchadnezzar 1st year
587 Nebuchadnezzar 18th year
562 Nebuchadnezzar 43rd year
539 Belshazzar killed - end of Babylon as the 3rd world power
609+539=70 years
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aqwsed12345
JW claim:
"Jeremiah 25:11-12 does not merely represent Babylon’s domination but explicitly indicates a literal 70-year exile and desolation period, starting in 607 BCE and ending in 537 BCE."
Refutation: This JW argument misconstrues the explicit wording and context of Jeremiah 25:11-12. The verses explicitly state that Judah and surrounding nations would "serve the king of Babylon seventy years." This passage clearly emphasizes Babylon’s supremacy—not the duration of Judah’s exile or desolation explicitly. Jeremiah never states explicitly that the land would remain completely desolate for exactly 70 years. This is an interpretative leap made by the JW organization. Historically, the period of Babylonian supremacy fits exactly 70 years from 609 BCE (Babylon defeats Assyria decisively at Harran) to 539 BCE (the fall of Babylon to Cyrus). Thus, their argument of a fixed 70-year desolation is not scriptural but interpretative.
JW claim:
"The WT 1981 article (August 1, p. 27) was misapplied by critics, as it refers to Habakkuk’s prophecy, not Jeremiah 25."
Refutation: The Watchtower often intermixes Jeremiah 25 and Habakkuk when discussing Babylon’s judgment. However, Jeremiah 25:12 explicitly links the judgment of Babylon with the end of the 70 years. The JWs themselves teach the 70 years ended in 537 BCE, yet Babylon’s fall (539 BCE) is universally acknowledged historically and biblically as the judgment event that ends Babylon’s supremacy. Thus, the JW position artificially separates the judgment of Babylon (539 BCE) from the end of the 70 years (537 BCE) to fit their timeline, which creates a two-year contradiction in the prophetic logic of Jeremiah 25:12.
JW claim:
"Jeremiah’s prophecy of 70 years pertains exclusively to Judah’s desolation and exile, and Babylon was only the instrument."
Refutation: Jeremiah 25:11 explicitly includes "these nations" (plural) serving Babylon, clearly showing Judah was not the sole focus. The JW interpretation ignores Jeremiah’s broader international context. The prophecy, in reality, concerns a period of regional Babylonian supremacy affecting Judah among other nations. Thus, the JW claim that the prophecy applies exclusively to Judah contradicts Jeremiah’s clear wording.
JW claim:
"The 70-year exile can only begin with Jerusalem’s destruction (607 BCE) and end with Cyrus’s decree (537 BCE)."
Refutation: Historically, 607 BCE is an entirely untenable date, as it contradicts all archaeological, historical, and astronomical records. The 70-year period was of Babylon’s supremacy (609-539 BCE), not of a literal exile and desolation. Moreover, Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 BCE and issued his decree shortly thereafter (538 BCE), not in 537 BCE. This date (537 BCE) is a JW invention with no historical support.
JW claim:
"The judgment on Babylon in Jeremiah 25:12 began after the 70 years ended, so it must be post-537 BCE."
Refutation: This claim is chronologically and logically impossible, as Jeremiah explicitly states judgment on Babylon occurs immediately at the end of the 70 years. Babylon historically fell in 539 BCE, thus marking the end of Babylon’s supremacy. If the 70 years truly ended in 537 BCE, Jehovah would have prematurely judged Babylon two years before the prophecy ended—a contradiction. Therefore, the JW interpretation violates the direct chronological sequence of Jeremiah.
JW claim:
"Daniel’s viewpoint considers Babylon’s dominion beginning with Jerusalem’s destruction (607 BCE)."
Refutation: Daniel explicitly begins his dating of events from Nebuchadnezzar’s first arrival in Jerusalem (Dan. 1:1), which historically occurred in 605 BCE. Daniel nowhere asserts a 607 BCE date. Babylon’s role as a "world power" did not begin with Jerusalem’s fall but earlier when Nebuchadnezzar defeated Egypt at Carchemish in 605 BCE (Jeremiah 46:2).
JW claim:
"Nebuchadnezzar ruled 624-581 BCE; secular dates (605-562 BCE) rely on secular (Ptolemy’s) records, not the Bible."
Refutation: This JW chronology contradicts countless Babylonian astronomical diaries, economic tablets, royal inscriptions, and independent Egyptian and Persian records. Even the Bible aligns precisely with secular records: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year (Jer. 52:12-13), aligning with 586/587 BCE. The JW proposal (624-581 BCE) would require ignoring extensive historical documentation.
JW claim:
"Daniel mentions a 7-year absence of Nebuchadnezzar from his throne, unaccounted for by secular scholars, thus invalidating standard Babylonian chronology."
Refutation: The seven-year period described in Daniel 4 (Nebuchadnezzar’s madness) does not create a chronological gap. Babylonian administrative texts show continuity throughout Nebuchadnezzar’s reign without interruption. Daniel's text does not state Nebuchadnezzar lost his throne literally; rather, it indicates temporary incapacity. This event caused no chronological gap. The JW insertion of a seven-year gap contradicts well-attested historical records.
JW claim:
"Josephus and Ezra support the 70-year exile from 607 to 537 BCE."
Refutation: Josephus explicitly confirms Jerusalem’s destruction occurred in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign, aligning precisely with secular records (586/587 BCE). Ezra, likewise, makes no explicit mention of a 607 BCE date. He refers to Cyrus’s decree in his first year (538 BCE), historically verified by Persian records. JWs misread these sources to uphold their chronology artificially.
JW claim:
"Secular chronology leaves no room for the biblical 70-year exile."
Refutation: The opposite is true: Secular chronology fully aligns with the biblical 70-year prophecy if understood correctly as Babylon’s dominance. The 70 years precisely fit secular historical records: 609 BCE (Babylon defeats Assyria decisively) to 539 BCE (Babylon’s fall). No chronological gap is required. The JW view artificially inserts gaps and ignores well-attested historical records.
JW claim:
"Critics (such as Carl Olof Jonsson) neglect the Jewish Exile, which invalidates their chronology."
Refutation: Carl Olof Jonsson’s work extensively documents the exile, but he correctly shows the Bible never explicitly teaches a literal 70-year exile period. It explicitly mentions Babylonian supremacy for 70 years, confirmed historically. The JW assertion that critics neglect the exile is incorrect and misleading.
JW claim:
"586/587 BCE dates for Jerusalem’s destruction are bogus and uncertain among scholars."
Refutation: Contrary to JW assertions, scholars universally accept 586 or 587 BCE based on overwhelming evidence (Babylonian Chronicles, VAT 4956, economic records). The uncertainty between 586/587 is minor, representing a few months, not decades. No credible scholar proposes 607 BCE as even remotely plausible.
JW claim:
"Jeremiah describes explicitly a 70-year exile starting with Jerusalem’s destruction."
Refutation: Jeremiah never explicitly states a literal 70-year exile beginning precisely at Jerusalem’s destruction. He explicitly identifies the 70-year period as Babylonian supremacy (Jer. 25:11). The JW position misreads Jeremiah by conflating the exile, servitude, and desolation into one literal 70-year event beginning at 607 BCE.
Conclusion:
Every single JW argument provided here relies on artificial reinterpretation, selective citation, and outright denial of established historical facts. Their date of 607 BCE is unsupportable historically, astronomically, archaeologically, and biblically. The proper biblical and historical reading of Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy aligns perfectly with secular chronology (609-539 BCE), confirming the conventional date (586/587 BCE) for Jerusalem’s destruction as accurate.
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KalebOutWest
I would give both Scholar and JWs their 607 BCE date if they wanted it.
Even with that mistake, they could never reach 1914 CE with their calculations whatsoever. Why not? Because the problem is not the start date. The problem is counting the "seven times."
Jehovah's Witnesses use the principle of counting "a day for a year" (Nu 13:34; Ez 4:5-6) to count the "seven times" in order to get to 1914. But a Jewish year is not standard, and there is no mean year--meaning there is no average calculation you can make on what the Watchtower loves to call the "Biblical" year.
The Jewish Year
The last thing the Great Sanhedrin did before it was dissolved and the Jewish system came to an end in 425 CE was to introduce the now current Jewish calendar system now in use, produced by Hillel II.
The great court of the Jewish people was actually instituted not by the Jews themselves but by the Romans to help end the countless bickering over the religious infrastructure, including, among other things, the declaration of the beginning of the Jewish month and when holy days began and ended. Interestingly many Jewish sages predicted that the Roman armies would eventually come to attack the holy city prior to 70 CE, so some years before the Roman armies surrounded the city, the Great Sanhedrin was moved to Yavne where it stayed until after the fall of the Temple. Shortly afterward it was moved to Tiberias where it remained until it was disbanded and the Jewish system finally came to an end.
In an effort to to help the Diaspora continue to observe the Law and observe holy days, the Sanhedrin tried to send out news, but it would always be after the event. Since the Jewish calendar was a lunisolar calendar (meaning a lunar calendar that had to be adjusted with a leap year to keep in time with solar seasons) set and determined by study of the phases of the moon and harvest seasons in Israel, this became impossible now that the Jews were no longer allowed in their land. There also had to be a means of determining when events in the history of the Jewish people took place in the past, so a set year needed to be put in place that could by fixed astronomically with what is generally witnessed in the Promised Land.
Hillel II created such a calendar that matched these needs, taking into account how the agricultural settings of the Levant played a factor into determining when there would be a need to account for a leap year along with astronomical demands. The cycle is known as a Metonic cycle, and leap years add an entire month to the year seven times within a 19-year cycle, specifically in years 3, 6, 8, 11, 14, 17, and 19 of this cycle.
The Watchtower Calculation
Jehovah's Witnesses calculate 1914 from 607 BCE counting 7 "Biblical years" or "times," claiming that each “time” is made up of a “mean” or “average” Biblical year made up of 360 days.
Of course, that does not exist. Jewish calendar years fluctuate depending on whether it is a leap year or not. As the Metonic cycle developed by the Great Sanhedrin shows, on average, the Promised Land experienced a “leap year” about 7 times every 19 years.
This means the Biblical calendar did not have 360 days every year but about 390 in those specific times.
Watchtower publications tend to use two Scripture texts in Revelation, which are New Testament texts in Greek, to show that “7 times” equal 1,260 times and then ask people to “double” this. (Revelation 12:6,14) The Watchtower of November 1, 1986, p 6 explains in further detail:
How long were the “seven times,” or “appointed times of the nations,” to last? Plainly, they would extend much longer than 7 literal years of 360 days each (as Biblical years were calculated), which would amount to 2,520 days. Scriptural precedent indicates that we should substitute one year for each day. (See Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6; compare Revelation 12:6, 14.) Such a calculation would mean that the “seven times” lasted 2,520 years. If they began with Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E., they would end in the year 1914 C.E.
But it is not 2,520 years from 607 BCE. There are more because of the Jewish leap years!
If we take into account the Great Sanhedrin way of calculating leap years, that is the Metonic cycle, that would be 928 additional years!
(For those of you into mathematical formulas, you divide the total number of years by the length of the Metonic cycle and multiply by the number of leap years per cycle, thus giving you the number of leap years missing in the 2,520 Biblical years.)
Now, because the original system was determined by human investigation and not by the Sanhedrin calendar system, let’s drop off 8 years from the total, giving us 920.
So, instead of 2,520 years from 607 BCE, Jehovah’s Witnesses should be counting 3,440 years from 607 BCE (or 3,448 if you want to be exact).
That difference of 920 or so years means that Jesus’ return would occur 900+ years after 1914 due to the Biblical leap years. (The year 2834 or 2842, give or take those 8 years that I played with.)
In other words, 1914 is the wrong date. That’s way too early.
Like in the movie Raiders of the Lost Ark, they are digging in the wrong place due to using a measuring stick of the wrong size.
According to their formula, the Gentile Times is not due to end until at least 2834. That means there is no Faithful and Discreet Slave yet or restorative “true religion,” or anyone to find this formula in the Scriptures yet.
A paradox, indeed.