Explosion at Manchester Arena - Fatalities Confirmed

by cofty 342 Replies latest members politics

  • cofty
    cofty
    Can I assume this is happening because I am a newbie - Hothead

    No it's happening because you said that people should be shot for the thought crimes of their family members - fully expecting to be applauded for your hatred.

    When you were challenged on it you began lying and pretending you didn't say it. When it was proven that you said it you pretended you meant something else.

    Instead of engaging in a conversation about Islam - a topic I am well informed about - you went on the attack labelling me as a regressive liberal. You could not be more wrong.

    Islam is incompatible with a free liberal democracy. So are your opinions,

  • hothabanero
    hothabanero

    @Cofty: I got a story for you.

    At my old KH, there was this guy who spend a million years making it to elder, and my congregation lacked capable elders... I guess many here know his type: insecure hardcore wannabe company man but lacked the skills to fit in even in the Borg.

    Anyway, when I was a kid a thing he would do is to wait until he was in a group without elders and there was a teenager/kid in the group. He would then drive the talk onto a spiritual topic (this and his job were the only two thing he could talk about) and then he would wait (or bait) the teenager into saying something... he would then parse what you said and make you look ridiculous: You said the right thing but used the wrong word and he would dig into you and have you clarify and explain until you didn't know what was up and down. He made me cry once & I am pretty sure he once made a kid piss himself during FS.

    I swear I could picket assemblies from now to kingdom come and get less people out of the truth than this guy did without trying.

    So here goes:

    I am sorry if I didn't write things 110% accurately in my first go. I just spoke with someone on a forum whose best friend lost a sister and was riled up.

    I am sorry what I wrote didn't satisfy your standards but if you do the least bit if reading between the lines, or ask me what I mean, I meant what I wrote above: Punish radicals who are a danger & ensure they are not a danger anymore. Is this wrong? Did I overstate your boundaries for what kind of speech you can tolerate?

    Other people wrote the same but you single me out. Why do you do that? Why is it important for you to call me insane?

    Do you need to childishly insult me again, spell my name wrong and misstate what I mean to score points and show how right and better you are than everyone else on this topic? Why don't you just leave me alone if you think I am stupid/insane or report me to the mods?

    Did you make it to elder?

  • cofty
    cofty

    Hothabanero - I never said you were insane. I did say that your call to shoot people with radical views and to also shoot their family was insane. I hope that now you have had a chance to reflect on it you would agree that "insane" and "dangerously stupid" were reasonable characterisations of what you wrote.

    I think that you have made the mistake of reading other posts about Islam and thought that it was open-season so you hijacked my thread with your extremist vitriol against all Muslims, hoping for lots of "likes". I do not want to be associated with your hate-speech.

    If you can't distinguish between contempt for a bad idea like Islam, and dehumanising all those who belong to that religion then you don't understand the importance of a free liberal democracy.

    Think about what is reasonable and effective in the long run. Don't take positions for the sake of plaudits.

  • Simon
    Simon

    hothabenero - why not just retract your words and put it down to clumsy phrasing or misspeaking?

    You can't say you didn't say what we all saw because it's there. I'm sure some won't get the nuance between "execute terrorists and their families" and "execute terrorist families" but it's very important to get the message right.

    No one should be execute just because their cousin Mohammed is a terrorist. But they should absolutely be investigated and if they too are a dangerous radical that has provided support they should go in the same hole as far as I'm concerned.

    The latter is arguable and defensible IMO, but the former isn't.

    Trying to defend it makes it look as though you really mean the former. Many of us hold strong opinions about the threat of Islam as an ideology and the threat of many Muslims following that ideology but you should no confuse that with or use it as an opportunity to promote hatred against groups.

    It's similar to how some confuse judgement of the WTS, criticism of some JWs actions and antagonism to all JWs just for being JWs.

    Overreaching makes it harder to argue the defensible options. There are plenty of bad things that gets a pass under the guise of Islam that can be targeted for criticism and pushed for change.

  • hothabanero
    hothabanero
    @Cofty: I never said you were insane
    You wrote "insane ravings", and you still refer to me by your made-up name. Have you thought about how passive-aggressive this is?

    I could also call you by some made-up name but I am not 12 anymore and I would have the decency of not pretending I wasn't acting like a jerk.

    If you disagree with me offer a counter-argument, try to have me clarify (which I will be happy to do) or ignore me. My opinions are similar to other members of this forum but you singled me out, the newbie. Again I ask: why?

    you have made the mistake of reading other posts about Islam and thought that it was open-season so you hijacked my thread
    Sorry for blurting out my opinion before the mic was passed to me lol.

    hoping for lots of "likes"
    Thanks for the diagnosis but I am all good with ppl trying to poke through what I say to figure out what my "motives" really are.

    you don't understand the importance of a free liberal democracy.
    The important thing is you got that figured all out and can point out to others they don't get it lol.

    @Simon:
    I don't think anyone should be executed bc they are in family with a terrorist, of course not! I am sorry if I wrote too quickly and it came across like that but obviously I don't believe that.
    I meant exactly what you wrote: If they are determined to be radicals who are dangerous THEN measures must be taken. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I got ADHD and it is not doing good things for my writing especially when I am agitated.

  • Hecce
    Hecce
    I got ADHD and it is not doing good things for my writing especially when I am agitated.

    This is a friendly setting, just an interchange of opinions; there is no reason to be agitated. If you feel that way, just leave this alone until you cool off.



  • Bungi Bill
    Bungi Bill

    Barry,

    I believe that the opinions of senior (and highly experienced) military officers such as Colonel Richard Kemp need to be taken seriously.

    In a fight such as this one, stern measures are called for; ones that any Western democracy would not usually take. However, during the Malayan Emergency (1948-1960), Britain did legislate a series of "Emergency Regulations" which were used in its (ultimately successful) 12 year long fight against a Communist Insurrection. These regulations allowed for such things as deportation and / or internment - the same measures that Richard Kemp is advocating now. Furthermore, under the circumstances of an insurgency type of war (in which the Asian population was being terrorised by the Communist forces), such measures were considered acceptable.

    Although this was a fight against a political rather than a religious ideology, there are in fact more than a few similarities between religion and the more extreme of political ideologies. Certainly the more die-hard Chinese Communists in Malaya exhibited a level of extremism very similar to that of the current crop of Muslim suicide bombers. (This fact often attested to by the ex-servicemen who fought in the Malayan Emergency). Also, in the wider Communist-versus-the-West conflicts in Asia during those decades of the 1950s and 60s, the suicide bomber mentality was never far away. (See, for example, Bernard B. Fall's Hell in a Very Small Place: The Siege of Dien Bien Phu, in which he describes the activities of the Viet Minh's "Death Volunteers". Also, for an informative read about suppressing a Communist Insurrection, see both Noel Barber's War of the Running Dogs and Sir Robert Thompson's Defeating Communist Insurgency: Experiences of Malaysia and Vietnam).

    There are a number of parallels between religious fanaticism and political fanaticism. Likewise, the fight against one shares certain similarities with the fight against the other. Colonel Richard Kemp has identified two such similar components - i.e. deportation and internment.

    Furthermore, emergency measures such as these can be applied in a Western democracy without it having to revert to barbarism - and without having to therefore betray everything that Western Civilisation stands for.

    As others here have already reminded us, though, action now needs to be taken quickly (make that bloody quickly!)


  • hothabanero
    hothabanero

    @Hecce: You preach it! I am cool now, I was talking to when I wrote my initial comments shortly after I wrote with someone who's friends sister got killed. I won't refer what he said here but it brought me to tears hearing about it. The press f... sucks I will say that.

    I should have written it like Simon wrote it bc that was what I meant, I just didn't think it would be misunderstood the way it was.

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99

    Jonathan Pie nails it. AGAIN.

    https://youtu.be/kIvZ2EBqdEQ

  • cofty
    cofty

    So now that we are agreed that shooting people for thought crimes isn't an option how about internment?

    We tried in against the IRA.

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