Explosion at Manchester Arena - Fatalities Confirmed

by cofty 342 Replies latest members politics

  • konceptual99
    konceptual99
    Yet nobody blamed ALL catholics for the IRA attack. No one said, 'he's a catholic he must be a sympathiser'. No one attacked or set fire to catholic churches on the mainland. Strange eh.
    The blame was rightly laid at the door of those who carried out the attack. As it should be in this case.

    Whilst this is true there are some differences.

    Firstly although sides in The Troubles were essentially formed along sectarian lines the driving issue was not religious ideology but political. The IRA were not claiming some religious justification but a political one.

    If there had been a viable political solution open to Loyalists then perhaps The Troubles might not have escalated.

    ISIS goals, on the other hand, are theologically driven. They don't care about dialog or compromise. They want all infidels to be dead and nothing we can do can change that view.

    Whilst ISIS represents the most extreme interpretation of Islam and one that most Muslims thankfully do reject, it is still based on texts that put a division between the believer and the non-believer. The Quran, just like the Bible, creates a moral barrier between the two groups that allows people even at a moderate level to build a view that they are better than a non-believer. It also means that at some point a believer has to decide if they are going to accept their holy text or not when faced with certain situations (e.g. homosexuality, sex outside of marriage).

    In most forms of Christianity the moral barriers have been broken because people don't care and the efficacy of social disgrace has diminished. 50 years ago single mothers were still going to homes to have babies in secret but that's been wiped out as people simply don't care.

    In the West, those that wish to have a Christian faith are generally free to choose how they mix this with anything else that influences their lives be that secular or not. No one cares.

    It's only in smaller faiths or in countries where progressive views are still in the minority that a strict view of Biblical morality holds sway - like Jehovah's Witnesses. Even then they have to use shunning as a social control. Even fewer Christian sects are anywhere close to using violence to try and force their views on people.

    This is not the case in Islam. Even many so called moderate Muslims live in families and communities where any divergence from accepted norms results in pretty severe social consequences. Muslim women, even in the West, suffer from a far more patriarchal infrastructure than most non-Muslim women. So many Muslims have a problem trying to find a happy compromise between Western permissiveness and secularism when contrasted with their traditional views, even if considered fairly moderate.

    This is why the answer to this has to come from within. Of course it's impossible for an individual Muslim to stop extremist terrorism but that's no reason not to examine what they are really signing up to and rejecting anything that negates tolerance and inclusion. Just like with Christianity, if enough Muslims said they didn't care then change could come.

  • Landy
    Landy

    Stop trying to shift the blame away from the underlying cause.

    The underlying cause isn't this girl

    https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10154869459131939/

    The underlying cause are extremists who wish to turn you against Islam. To behave and think as you are is playing into their hands. We need to encourage normal muslims to stand up to the extremists, not totally alienate 1 billion people who are simply trying to get on with their lives. Does Islam need to evolve and change? Yes. Does the answer need to come fropm the muslim community? Yes it does. Are there lots of things in islam I would take issue with as progressive westerner? Of course there are. But there's no way I'm going to tar all muslims with an extremist sympathiser brush.

  • Landy
    Landy

    But if Catholicism was constantly attacking people all over the world and contained "kill the non-believers wherever you find them" commandments then I think people probably would.

    Islam isn't doing that. If they were there's a good chance we'd all be dead now.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    Yet nobody blamed ALL catholics for the IRA attack. No one said, 'he's a catholic he must be a sympathiser'. No one attacked or set fire to catholic churches on the mainland. Strange eh.The blame was rightly laid at the door of those who carried out the attack. As it should be in this case.landy

    you quite right Landy. but there was a lot of prejudice against Irish catholics at the time - same kinds of xenophobic justifications were used as are being used against muslims - But the Irish had more voices raised against xenophobia than muslims do and the newspapers did then try to make a distinction between ordinary catholics and the IRA as you rightly mention

  • _Morpheus
    _Morpheus

    @lamdy,

    Another critical difference is that catholics all of the world over wernt flocking to ireland to join the cause. Catholics all over the world wernt helping finance the ira.... and at its roots, the ira had nothing to do with catholtsium (Not that i have any love for the catholic church). It was political movement, pure and simple, with a common religious undertone as result of geography for the most part.

    the terror attacks currently being played out the globe over are most definately political but the ideology is purely islamic. Islamic politics, the blending of islamic faith and desire for their interpretation of islamic law to be obeyed everwhere.

    In short, you remove the catholic faith from the ira and they still are terrorists who wanted a unified ireland and would have acted in the exact same manner to try and accomplish that end. The islamic terrorism rampant around the globe today cannot be seperated from its islamic roots. Islam is THE defining motivating driving force behind. Without that strict, litteral interpretation of islam, there would be no terror attacks.

    Landy, i appreciate that you dont want to paint all musliums as terrorists but your comparison is short sighted, deeply flawed and betrays a lack of knowledge regarding both the ira and radical islamic terror.

  • Simon
    Simon

    Landy, there are no "normal Muslims". There are fake pretend Muslims that give cover to the ones who are truly dangerous and prop up the power of the leadership.

    As konceptual99 said, this is not like other conflicts where you can negotiate a peace through exchange or territory of change of laws, rights or anything else.

    Their fundamental claim is that we should not exist. That is their demand - that we die.

    There is no way to negotiate, there is no common ground. The only thing we can do is to fight and kill them instead of allowing them to kill us.

    For some reason, we don't do that to a sufficient degree or with enough voracity. And anytime someone even points out the issue is todo with Islam some moron pops up to say "no, no, no".

    Take you Muslim death cult apologism somewhere else, it's not welcome here.

  • Landy
    Landy

    @K99

    Yes, there's a lot of truth in your post. I'll admit my tongue was stuck in my cheek a bit when I posted it. The basic premise does hold true. The IRA were recognised as very small batch of extremists/criminals who managed to bring huge disruption to the uk for several decades. We should afford the muslim community the same respect.

  • Ruby456
    Ruby456

    huh? morpheus

    in ireland it was protestant against catholic - no amount of hedging is going to alter that. and who says ISIS isn't political - of course it is - it is using religion for political aims.

  • Simon
    Simon
    We should afford the muslim community the same respect.

    No we don't, are you for real? You think they are the victims? The problem comes from this community. We need to hold them accountable and stop excusing things and allowing them to carry on as normal.

    THEY are the people doing this. THEY know about it and say nothing. THEY sympathize and support.

    Sure, some won't ... but they are too silent. They need to pick a side.

    They need to drive them out if they don't want to be viewed as part of it.

  • Landy
    Landy

    Take you Muslim death cult apologism somewhere else, it's not welcome here.

    I'm not apologising for anything. What happened was deplorable and were the actions of a small minority. Thankfully a view I share with most of the rest of the world.

    Is it your desire to turn the forum into an britain first type muslim bashing forum?

    If so you're well on the way.

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