Explosion at Manchester Arena - Fatalities Confirmed

by cofty 342 Replies latest members politics

• 

  hothabanero

  @cofty: I answer your question but you do not answer mine.

  Which of the things on the list are thought-crimes?

  Which of those do you believe should have no consequences?

  You can keep asking me hypotheticals but to be honest, it feels like I am in the back room and you are trying to come up with a gotcha moment.

  The guy approves of terrorism. "approve" can mean different things. If he is found not to pose a risk he should be warned to shut up and perhaps fined... but I don't know how to tell if people don't pose a risk. Whoever taught him these things should be put under investigation.

  IF he is found to pose a risk or he keeps telling others they should kill people, he should be jailed, or given the option to leave the country.

  Not possible. Assume they are all local citizens.
  

  The ISIS guy in your example joined another state. In that case, stay out! All deportation requires is a plane and two airports!
• 

  cofty

  Which of those do you believe should have no consequences?

  None of them.
  
  
• 

  Simon

  #1 - A man in a shopping centre pulls a gun from his bag and shouts "Allahu Akbar".

  Shoot him

  Incidentally: nothing would show up the lie of "diversity is our strength" like the reaction you'd see if someone shouted "Allahu Akbar" close to one of the leftist politicians like Trudeau who likes to trot out the nonsense regularly. Do you think he'd run towards to person, arms outstretched to celebrate the diversity with them?

  #2 - A Muslim man returns from Syria having fought for ISIS. Whether or not he killed anybody during that time is unknowable.

  Don't let them back? Make travel to a designated war-zone illegal unless authorized (aid workers, officials, soldiers etc...).

  #3 - A Muslim man who is being watched by security services is observed leaving a hardware shop having bought materials that could potentially be used in bomb making.

  Insufficient information - there need to be some detail for the reason they are watching him and there is a bigger picture to consider - if his job is a roofer and he's buying bags of nails or he's renovating a deck and is buying lots of bolts vs he works as a fast food server and he also bought pressure cooker and some fertilizer after returning from fighting in Syria.

  If the latter, shoot him.

  It's better to make the call early and with measured calm than the panicked response that resulted in an innocent man being shot on the tube - that's what happens when the response is way too late in the process and it's reactionary to an attack happening.

  #4 - A Muslim man posts his approval of the Manchester murders on Facebook and boasts that he will do something similar when he is called to do so.

  Imprisoned for making a threat (presumably not a one-off case). Fine facebook for allowing it to be posted and give the money to victim fund. Investigate mosque, if others share similar views then bulldoze it. Too bad, so sad.

  #5 - A Muslim man writes on Facebook that the Manchester victims deserved to die for rejecting Islam.

  Make benefits and welfare contingent on a social contract. Investigate local mosque as for #4.

  What needs to happen for #5 is social condemnation - people need to suffer for their views but unfortunately, too often they are excused or celebrated and instead, anyone trying to speak out or condemn them is castigated for "racism" because "brown people bro". Ultimately, the do-gooder excusers of Islam embolden the #5 types to move up the rankings.
• 

  barry

  More bad news, a city in the southern Philippines has been taken over by ISIS. Civilians have been executed including a priest and 14 parishioners, a police chief was beheaded and people have been killed when they can't say islamic prayers. 2000 people trapped with food and water running out.

  The Philippines is 95% catholic and only 5% muslim and some of the militants are foreign fighters.

  Lets hope and pray the Islamists don't get a foothold in this country or we may have to fight another war.
• 

  waton

  Manchester or Marawi, Moslem problems. Moslems expanding into Burma (Myanmar) local pushback (not nice)

  Moslems expansion into the Philippines, push back.

  Remember wt prophecy: "Babylon d G" ( religion) fell in 1918? not!

  Pity the Filipinos, Filipinas, exposed to fighting on many fronts, poverty, corruption, drug dealers, the Chinese takeover of their sea, , the Islam's encroachment. If the islamic faithful are a majority in a region, how do you curb them democratically? when their bandits hide among their co-religionists, how do you fight a clean war?
• 

  barry

  Fourth day of Ramadan 13 attacks 120 kills.
• 

  cofty

  Simon - I agree with your decisions on the five scenarios with the possible exception of #3 if he could be safely arrested.

  We used to have something called "control orders" but they were deemed illegal. I would favour bringing them back once we escape from the European Court. Start with the 3000 suspects that the security services are following around and the other 3000 they don't have the resources to follow. Give them all an ankle bracelet, a curfew and make them sign in at a police station every day.

  We could also get advice from the Quilliam Foundation on how to identify those who might benefit from compulsory counselling.
• 

  Simon

  with the possible exception of #3 if he could be safely arrested.

  The reason I would go for a kill-order for someone who is in the process of taking concrete steps to execute an attack:

  I think the notion that people like that can be reformed is incorrect and putting them in prison means you are just locking up a captive audience of potential recruits with them.

  There is nothing to be gained to society IMO from them being allowed to live and everything to lose. People escape prison, idiot judges favour liberalism over life and release them (happened in the US).

  They are simply cancerous cells of society and need to be erased (same goes for any mass killers but the religiously inspired are especially dangerous).
• 

  The Rebel

  Re Coftys five points.

  points 1 - 5 . I believe it's a matter of right justice, applied in a correct way according to English law. I believe respect for this justice is more important than my personal opinion.
• 

  Thisismein1972

  It's a shame that we talk about the 22 lives lost in the Manchester bombing, yet we do not approach the elephant in the room that is, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, and Libya. Literally tens of thousands of, men, women, and children have been slaughtered with American and UK made bombs. Oh, because it's not in our Western world then it dousn't matter.

  Someone mentioned the Philippines here. The reason ISIS are now causing havoc in the Mindanao region, including Davao City, is because President Duterte is now breaking ties with America and seeking diplomatic relations with China and Russia. Duterte also is aware he could be assassinated at any time due to his stance on drugs in his country.

  President Duterte knows what is going on, he knows where the drugs come from, and who they benefit. That's the very reason ISIS are now attacking the Philippines. And if you ask any Filipino what they think of Duterte, they will defend him to the death. This is how much the Philippines love their President.

  The Philippines is a poor country due to the medling of the US, I heard just the other day the Philippines has the second biggest minerals resource in the world, that resource is Gold. Why has the Philippines not benefited from this precious mineral. That question you would need to ask the US.

  Please, before denouncing another religion, let's remember what we in the west are guilty of. And this is NOT in the name of religion.

  It's our political policies in the middle East that has caused this problem. And another thing that needs to be asked, when these so called terrorists attack, why do they never attack the political system, why not blow up the houses of Parliament, why not target the Prime Minister of Britain, or the President of the United States? Why do these so called terrorists go for soft targets?

  On a side note, Teresa May said after the Manchester attack she now wants to go after the internet. As far as I know, this attack didn't have nothing to do with the internet at all.