TIMI.72 - Your post sounds exactly like the ravings of an internet conspiracy nut.
Explosion at Manchester Arena - Fatalities Confirmed
by cofty 342 Replies latest members politics
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LoveUniHateExams
So you believe that ISIS is actually behind all this? - yes, ISIS and other terrorist groups.
You know that GCHQ has had billions of pounds pumped into it to stop terrorists from even releasing content to the general public - GCHQ is the headquarters of the funny people - they spy on and keep track of Britain's enemies. The can't stop terrorists from broadcasting propaganda and violence-porn through the terrorists' own media channels. Who do you think is behind Islamist beheading videos?
there is something seriously wrong with the political system if ISIS can ALWAYS publish propaganda - each Western country can only regulate its own media. ISIS and other groups operate outside British or American broadcasting guidelines!
Yes, I'm aware of what's going on in Yemen. Let's apportion blame where it belongs - the Saudi government is at fault there.
Re the Iraq war, yes I agree, it was wrong.
Re the Philippines - you're not seriously suggesting the US is somehow to blame for the Islamist militants currently committing atrocities on Mindanao? This Island has had an ISIS affiliate for some time - over the past year or two, they've taken Canadians, Germans and Norwegians hostage and beheaded them when the ransom wasn't paid. Nothing to do with the US.
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slimboyfat
To blame modern Islamic terrorism in Europe on foreign policy is pathetically naive.
Well that's exactly what Robert Fisk argues. It's a bit unusual to recommend authors you think are "pathetically naive", but fair enough. I think his argument is sound. You cited Fisk's book as if it would correct Scotsman, when it fact it supports the point he was making.
It's true that the Ottoman Empire clashed with Europe, not least during the famous seize of Vienna in 1529 when the Ottoman advance was repelled.
In the following century Europe was also ripped apart, this time by rival Catholic and Protestant armies that destroyed the continent of Europe almost beyond recognition during the Thirty Years War (1618-1648).
History can tell us a lot. But anyone who thinks the siege of Vienna should inform our current understanding of Muslims in Europe is barking up the wrong tree, just as anyone who thinks Catholic and Protestant relations in Europe in the 21st century are determined by past wars.
People who harp on about th seige of Vienna to stigmatise Muslims resemble the orangemen who invoke the Battle of the Boyne. Both blinded by bigotry and historically illiterate.
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Simon
People who harp on about th seige of Vienna to stigmatise Muslims resemble the orangemen who invoke the Battle of the Boyne. Both blinded by bigotry and historically illiterate.
Here's a sad truth.
Nearly every country / people in the world have been at war with people for some reason at some point.
"we" were at war with Germans and Japanese and many others quite recently and millions of people died as a result. Yet we were able to put it behind us even soon after it ended and we get on with the people we fought against.
This is repeated many times. Peoples we battled with become our friends.
Except when it comes to certain groups.
For them there is no moving on. They are in perpetual grievance mode over things that happened decades, centuries or even a thousand years ago. Things long before WWII are held as grudges by certain groups.
Why can some move on and some cannot?
NOTHING anyone in the west has ever done excuses ANYONE blowing up innocent kids who have nothing to do with any of the history some claim caused it.
Trying to excuse their action as a response is short-sighted and those kinds of arguments have a way of coming full circle. If their attacks are "because ..." then ours were "because ..." - some excuse, some reason, some grudge carried along even though the people involved are all long dead.
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slimboyfat
Who is excusing perpetrators?
Personally I only partly agree that foreign policy is the main cause of these incidents. It's a combination of things. I think people become suicide bombers and mass murderers mainly because they are socially alienated and dissatisfied with their lives. Religion and racist ideology are window dressing for deeper social and psychological dissatisfaction. This applies to a whole range of murderers from the 9/11 attackers to Brevik, to Timothy McVey, to the 7/7 bombers, to "Jihadi John", to Dylan Roof, and to all the other "losers" (to coin a phrase) who commit such murders.
This interpretation doesn't excuse them either. Neither opposition to foreign policy, nor dissatisfaction with your life in any way excuses murder.
If we are talking about what causes these incidents then it's important to look at the causes, not to absolve perpetrators of guilt, but to work out how to prevent it from happening in future.
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cofty
The cause of Islamic terrorism is Islamic beliefs taken seriously within a community of like-minded believers.
ISIS told us last year that our foreign policy is all but irrelevant.
Expanding the borders of the Caliphate by force is an act of religious devotion - and then the end will come.
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slimboyfat
Islamic beliefs didn't make Brevik, McVey, Roof, Bissonnette and others mass murder.
The common denominator of mass murderers from all different backgrounds is anomie.
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cofty
The common denominator of mass murderers from all different backgrounds is anomie - SBF
Anomie: a condition of instability resulting from a breakdown of standards and values or from a lack of purpose or ideals.
This is the exact antithesis of Islamic terrorists. You could not be more wrong.
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slimboyfat
Well the man who tried to blow me up in Glasgow didn't cite religion. He came from Fallujah and was traumatised by the deaths of many people he knew. For some there is a personal motivation like that.
For others they have been frustrated by setbacks in life and lack of socialisation. It's true that religion and racism is what finally prompts religious terrorists and racists terrorists to murder. In both cases it's against the backdrop of deeper dissatisfaction and anomie.
Often we hear the comments from aquantainces: "he was never interested in religion before". Or how they visited stip clubs or got drunk all the time and had problems with drugs and so on. The same pattern exists for racist white supremacist murderers as for those who murder in the name of Islam. It's the same malaise affecting both. We need to talk about what we can do as a society to make everyone, especially young men, feel they have a stake and a place in society. Stigmatising minority groups is a red herring and does not address the problem.
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cofty
Often we hear the comments from aquantainces: "he was never interested in religion before". Or how they visited stip clubs or got drunk all the time and had problems with drugs and so on
Yes that is often true.
Muslims are raised to believe in a literal hellfire in a way that goes far beyond every other religion. Muslim youth who drinks and parties knows he is going to burn for eternity. When his skin is all burned off he will be given new skin and put back in the fire.
There is a way to wipe out all of your sins, escape hell and go straight to paradise - martyrdom.
Die killing the kafir and get a instant ticket to the highest table in the afterlife with 42 virgins.
The quickest way to turn a young Muslim into a suicide bomber is to find one that is not living as a good Muslim and teach him the quran and Hadith. Not the way he was taught as a child reciting it in Arabic by rote but teach him it in English.
The words and actions of the prophet when taken seriously lead directly to dead children in Manchester.