Does anybody still believe in God and the Bible?

by tornapart 218 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

sabastious

And if god does exist, it isn't on anybody's side at all.
In our current state there is no way for humans to coexist without violence. There are ones that can do it, but a little leaven ferments the whole loaf. If a city had 50 years of peace and quiet and then that same city had a spike of 3 murders over the course of three months the security of the citizens would dramatically lower. The sudden loss of overall security could then create a cycle of murders which would make the citizens even more insecure. Now in order to stop a real problem from happening you have to convince the citizens to stop feeling scared when they are actually in a scary situation now with all the murders. This situation creates needless suffering to people who are innocent bystanders. At some point the city needs a night in shining armor or maybe a Dark Knight.
-Sab
sabastious

Yes but what exactly do you think shows signs of supernatural origin?
It seems to have special knowledge of the human condition and our evolution. For instance the Bible speaks of Satan the Devil as a "roaring lion seeking to devour you." People of ancient times still had a very good knowledge of the animal kingdom. There is a reason why they use lions as allegory for how "Satan" gets you.
Lions mostly just sit around in the daytime. The nature shows like to show them hunting in the daytime because it's the best lighting for filming. Yet, in reality lions hunt at night. Their eyes are specially evolved for night hunting therefore they spend most of their time during the day resting for the night hunt.
The contrast between night and day is used throughout the Bible to separate Good from Evil. When the Bible says "evil is a lion" that is the Bible's way of telling you not to "go out at night" because you'll be devoured by Satan. This is a compelling way to describe how the process of Good and Evil work at their core. Evil requires unholy ground so to speak. If one surrounds themselves with righteousness they will find no darkness around them and therefore no lions.
The Watchtower, and many other so called Christian groups, want everyone to feel that Satan is like a boogieman that can strike at any time. But the Bible lets us know that you don't just get devoured by a lion, if you do you are most likely in the wrong place and the right time for evil to devour your soul.
-Sab
sabastious

I believe the Bible paints humanity with the brush of the Gods so to speak. It's ancient wisdom that was given to us by a source outside this world. No one can fully explain WHY it has the kernels of truth it has.
-Sab
EntirelyPossible

This link wont work until tomorrow, but the Phoenix Lights is one such event that was verified to be experienced by thousands of people.
OK. That doesn't prove God or something supernatural, which was the context of the discussion. It proves a series of lights was unexplained.
What I mean is that they shouldn't be discredited by discrediting people who follow their works.
I discredit them on their own merits, like getting the value of pi wrong, the shape of the earth, basic geology, biology, etc. Completely uninspired.
If one believes in such things than one shouldn't be overtly critisized for beliving that the first cause had something to do with the words of the Bible.
What first cause?
There seems to be a pattern to me that requires stepping steps backward in perspective to appreciate and sometimes those steps come with frightening prospects.
Frightening? No, not really. It's an ancient people that, like you said, thought God was on their side. They made god in their image, small minded, violent, misogynist. Pretty typical. The pattern is that it's pretty much just like every other ancient people.
EntirelyPossible

It seems to have special knowledge of the human condition and our evolution.
Ah. What other ancient writings have you compared it to, contemporary and older, to see if they share the same insight? If others share the same ideas, would that mean they are ALL inspired or none inspired?
Lions mostly just sit around in the daytime. The nature shows like to show them hunting in the daytime because it's the best lighting for filming. Yet, in reality lions hunt at night.
Holy shit. So your argument is that Bible is special because it talks about lions hunting and they mostly do that at night except for all the films of them doing that during the day? So the special knowledge is from something they only do at night except all the times they do it during the day? Really?
Wow. That's.... so far beyond making sense as to just be laughable. Really.
sabastious

OK. That doesn't prove God or something supernatural, which was the context of the discussion. It proves a series of lights was unexplained.
It proves that unexplained events can be experienced by thousands of people. It's not "proof" of God it's evidence that can be used as part of an argument. The fact that even today with all our technology we can still have a mass unexplained event tells us that we don't know as much as we present that we know. The government lied about those lights and made fun of the citizens who thought it was aliens. Then after the governer's (maybe it was the mayor's I don't remember) term was over he admitted to seeing them too. Think of similar events in the ancient world with no scientific method or anything like that. What those people wrote down that they saw shouldn't be 100% discounted.
I discredit them on their own merits, like getting the value of pi wrong, the shape of the earth, basic geology, biology, etc. Completely uninspired.
All those things are not required knowledge to experience unexplained phenomenon. If those people write down an experience like the Pheonix Lights they shouldn't be discounted because of their wrong ideas about science at the time. If they use those wrong ideas to explain the event than their explanation should be discounted, not necessarily the whole event.
What first cause?
The one that the Bible, and countless other religions, focus on and worship daily since the dawn of the sentient man. But for this discussion we'll zero in on the YHWH version.
Frightening? No, not really. It's an ancient people that, like you said, thought God was on their side. They made god in their image, small minded, violent, misogynist. Pretty typical. The pattern is that it's pretty much just like every other ancient people.
If the First Cause IS real and intelligent there are logical reasons for why he would allow humans to attribute their ghastly actions to Him. I wont deny that much of YHWH is created in man's image, but that's not proof that YHWH isn't a manmade God based off of the real deal.
Ah. What other ancient writings have you compared it to, contemporary and older, to see if they share the same insight? If others share the same ideas, would that mean they are ALL inspired or none inspired?
Mostly eastern texts, contemporary religions and modern scientific disciplines. I want to get into the Quran, but I don't currently have the time. Remember the Bible spans two mainstream religions over thousands of years. It's a powerhouse of a historical document.
Holy shit. So your argument is that Bible is special because it talks about lions hunting and they mostly do that at night except for all the films of them doing that during the day? So the special knowledge is from something they only do at night except all the times they do it during the day? Really? Wow. That's.... so far beyond making sense as to just be laughable. Really.
It was a "for instance." If you don't like it then that's fine. And you badly quoted me out of context by just referencing the first paragraph and you didn't paraphrase correctly. No need to explain again post 6993 does the job.
-Sab
sabastious

Frightening? No, not really. It's an ancient people that, like you said, thought God was on their side. They made god in their image, small minded, violent, misogynist. Pretty typical. The pattern is that it's pretty much just like every other ancient people.
EP, could you describe the process of which they created YHWH? Was their a council? How long did it take? How did they keep it a secret to the commoners that their God was a lie or made up? Why did they choose to make one God instead of more than one?
-Sab
Phizzy

The monotheism of the Israelites was a fairly late phenomenon, after the exile in Babylon. It is so easy to read it back in to the early history, but that history itself is doubtful as to its accuracy, and therefore, we have to ask, why did they go for just one god when they "returned" from Babylon.
Perhaps it was the same motive as that of Muhammad, he chose mono-theism as a political tool to unite the tribes of the desert.
frankiespeakin

I think the one god thing may have been Egypt influence, as well as zoroastrian, but we got some experts here that can narrow it down pretty good. It no doubt is an advancement over polytheism. I think some Jewish king before the Bablylonian take over who was trying to unite his subject under one king one god seemed to work and so he wiped out a lot of rivals of the national god.
EntirelyPossible

The fact that even today with all our technology we can still have a mass unexplained event tells us that we don't know as much as we present that we know.
That is a 100% dishonest misrepresentation of science.
The reason people are still doing science is because we don't know things. The lights in the sky is proof of that. No one argues it. It, however, is in no way evidence that "we don't know" means God might be real.
All those things are not required knowledge to experience unexplained phenomenon.
This has nothing to do with unexplained phenomena. This has to do with trust in the Bible as being accurate or a good guide. It fails.
The one that the Bible, and countless other religions, focus on and worship daily since the dawn of the sentient man. But for this discussion we'll zero in on the YHWH version.
Sure. Tell me what his first cause was? What caused him? What's your theory, evidence, hypothesis? Maybe it was the lights over Phoenix.
I wont deny that much of YHWH is created in man's image, but that's not proof that YHWH isn't a manmade God based off of the real deal.
You fail at the logics, bro. This type of logic chopping and double negative use is evidence of a poorly thought out construct that could NEVER have a positive resolution.
Remember the Bible spans two mainstream religions over thousands of years. It's a powerhouse of a historical document.
No....the Bible as a collection is relatively new and was only a powerhouse recently. The early writings of the Jews didn't influence the world at large. The Bible didn't exist when the Sumerians were writing their stuff, or the egyptians, or Buddha, or the Aztecs, or the Mayans, or the people making temples 13000 years ago at Gobekli Tepe.
So, if other ancient writings contain the same ideas as the bible, are ALL inspired or none inspired?
And you badly quoted me out of context by just referencing the first paragraph and you didn't paraphrase correctly.
I didn't quote you out of context. After what I quoted you switched to the idea of the Bible having the ideas of night and day. This was a self contained idea, part a larger non-sequitur. Perhaps I didn't paraphrase correctly, probably because the giant non-sequitur didn't make much sense.

Does anybody still believe in God and the Bible?

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