Does anybody still believe in God and the Bible?

by tornapart 218 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    EP, could you describe the process of which they created YHWH?

    I don't know the process. I wasn't there. There are, however, old writings that talk about YHWH and his consort and family, which Gods he reported to, who was subservient to him. I would imagine the process was much the same as how the greeks and persians developed their gods.

    Basically, people saw some shit, imagined the causes for it, gave those imaginations names and started worshipping them. Over time, they became more well defined with rules, offerings, rituals, etc.

    Was their a council?

    I am sure there were many councils and meetings of priests. There was probably also some changes at the grassroots level as well.

    How long did it take?

    Years.

    How did they keep it a secret to the commoners that their God was a lie or made up?

    I don't think they thought it was a lie. It's possible to speak an untruth without lying. Happens all the time.

    Why did they choose to make one God instead of more than one?

    That was an evolutions. Early writings show that one god eventually reigned supreme, but early on polytheism was the norm, even for the israelites. Perhaps it was just cultural evolution, kind of like asking how the US came to be a primarily industrial nation from agrarian. No one person or council made the decision. It was cultural evolution based on circumstances around them and developing a national identity.

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    No one can fully explain WHY it has the kernels of truth it has.

    Huh? the WHY is the same reason fish stories exists. Stories grow over time, they changes, get more magical, more awesome, and eventually you have a man that hooked a 30 ft great white shark pulling it on, fighting it for two days straight, not eating or drinking, sweating blood, struck by lightning that imbued him with power until finally he jumps in the water and kills the shark with his bare hands when, in reality, he caught a 7 ft reef shark.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Sure. Tell me what his first cause was? What caused him? What's your theory, evidence, hypothesis? Maybe it was the lights over Phoenix.

    I believe human existence is an impossibility because we cannot explain our environment. If you stand in the middle of a room and continuously walk in half the distance intervals towards one of it's walls you will never arrive at the wall. The ability to move forward forever without reaching a destination provides a window into our limitations. I do not believe my brain has the capacity to understand the first cause just as it is impossible to fully explain the big bang. Even the theory of evolution requires raw material to start with. That's the human framework: start, middle and end. The First Cause (that caused things that have starts, middles and ends) would NOT be limited to a corporeal existence. I don't presume to be able to explain the first cause just as Evolution doesn't presume to be able to explain HOW the raw material it uses as a foundation to the entire theory.

    Your argument is like saying that the entire framework of evolution is fallacious because it cannot fully explain itself. Abiogenesis provides theory, but where did that raw material come from? And here we are with an infinite loop again. I believe that proof that "God", or a higher power than the human brain, exists because of human's inherent limitations.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    You fail at the logics, bro. This type of logic chopping and double negative use is evidence of a poorly thought out construct that could NEVER have a positive resolution.

    Logic is a flawed model for reasons in my post 6998. Therefore we need more than just logic which is where God comes in, imo.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    No....the Bible as a collection is relatively new and was only a powerhouse recently. The early writings of the Jews didn't influence the world at large. The Bible didn't exist when the Sumerians were writing their stuff, or the egyptians, or Buddha, or the Aztecs, or the Mayans, or the people making temples 13000 years ago at Gobekli Tepe.

    I think you fail to understand the true importance of ancient agreement. The Bible is not a stand alone book, but rather a bunch of books from a bunch of times. I'm not saying the books agree with eachother. But there is something to be said of vastly differing cultures choosing to retain the original work instead of just doing a revision. Judaism, Christianity and Islam all attribute Abraham as a friend and prophet of God. I think that's where the whole narrative starts. Did "God" contact this man and become friends with him? I believe so because of how many cultures attribute him as a force in the ancient world.

    The Bible has been shown to be influenced by other cultures. To me this puts more credence in the Bible because it seems to be written with everyone in mind. It consolidates all rituals down to love. It's got a lot of room for overlords to get a hold of it and create empires, but that's just a misuse of a powerful book.

    Your attempts to minimize it fall short.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Basically, people saw some shit, imagined the causes for it, gave those imaginations names and started worshipping them. Over time, they became more well defined with rules, offerings, rituals, etc.

    So your explanation is that our ancients misinterpreted their surroundings because of lack of knowledge. Do you have evidence for these misinterpretations? You have many theories which cannot be proven or disproven because it was so long ago. Your argument against God being with these people is very fallacious. It's just a typical scenario of a hot head atheist putting himself on God's throne to explain away God. Your logic is just as general and non falsifiable as mine. The difference is that you insist that God doesn't exist I insist that there hasn't been enough work done yet for that conclusion. In the end both are merely opinions, but you will never admit that's what you have. You sit on God's throne and each cheetos. Cheesy.

    -Sab

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    My position is that I believe in God and the Bible, your position is that you can use the scientific method to disprove the existence of a higher power that has always resided with mankind. It's just another infinite loop.

    -Sab

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I believe human existence is an impossibility because we cannot explain our environment.

    Well that's just silly. We are here, so what you believe is irrelavant.

    If you stand in the middle of a room and continuously walk in half the distance intervals towards one of it's walls you will never arrive at the wall. The ability to move forward forever without reaching a destination provides a window into our limitations.

    Ah, Zeno's Dichotomy paradox. That relys on dividing forward progress infinitely into smaller and smaller portions. Since that's not how things work (as evidence by the fact your fingers can make it to the keyboard rather than infinitely moving half the distance), your analogy fails, as does the paradox. Forward progress is not infinitely divided into halves in a neat box like that.

    I do not believe my brain has the capacity to understand the first cause

    We agree 100%.

    just as it is impossible to fully explain the big bang

    That may be true. It may not be true. We, as a species, if we survive long enough, will see. Your assertion that it is impossible reminds me of people saying that human flight was impossible, or traveling faster than sound, or an expanding universe.

    Even the theory of evolution requires raw material to start with. That's the human framework: start, middle and end.

    That's how human stories (like the Bible) go. The universe functions very differently. We don't know what the start was or if there is an end. I don't see exactly how that relates to evolution, per se, since evolution definitely had a start, but again we don't know what the end is or if there is one.

    The First Cause (that caused things that have starts, middles and ends) would NOT be limited to a corporeal existence.

    That's an interesting conjecture, but that's all it is. Conjecture with wishful thinking.

    But, in the spirit of conjecture perhaps that First Cause that you want to be God, whatever plane of existence he lives in, consider HIS realm to be corporeal and had a first cause as well. I mean, if we are too complex to have spontaneously arisen, something more infinitely complex must have ALSO had a first cause, and THAT first cause PRIME must have ALSO had a first cause.

    Oh no, it's Zeno's paradox in reverse! We can never arrive at a first cause!

    I don't presume to be able to explain the first cause just as Evolution doesn't presume to be able to explain HOW the raw material it uses as a foundation to the entire theory.

    I know, there is a whole field of study dedicated to that called abiogenisis. They have done some amazing work lately. Check it out. We get closer every day using science, not wishful thinking. They presume to do the science and find out.

    Your argument is like saying that the entire framework of evolution is fallacious because it cannot fully explain itself.

    I am pretty sure I never said anything like that. More wishful thinking because it sounds like that is what YOU are saying.

    Abiogenesis provides theory, but where did that raw material come from? And here we are with an infinite loop again

    That why we do science! No infinite loop. We do science to figure it out.

    I believe that proof that "God", or a higher power than the human brain, exists because of human's inherent limitations.

    You are conjecturing that there are limits to what we can learn. That may be true. You, however, are taking possible limitations and projecting them as a positive assertion for God with nothing to back you up but wishful thinking.

    This is why science is ruthless to ideas. People making flu vaccines can't just wish for things, they have to treat the flu as it evolves and adjust appropriately, not ignore evolution like the fundies want.

    Oh, and what ARE those inherent limitations you are so keen on?

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    That was an evolutions. Early writings show that one god eventually reigned supreme, but early on polytheism was the norm, even for the israelites. Perhaps it was just cultural evolution, kind of like asking how the US came to be a primarily industrial nation from agrarian. No one person or council made the decision. It was cultural evolution based on circumstances around them and developing a national identity.

    The natural evolution always leads spiritual ideas to one God connected to every individual. Many of these ideas take thousands of years to hash out, but they always end in a form of monotheism. The reason for this is that when you have a bunch of gods, you eventually wonder if they have a check and a balance. All ideas like that lead to a single Check and Balance. A person who's been here from the start who can offer true mediation for all planes of existence and power levels.

    -Sab

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Logic is a flawed model for reasons in my post 6998.

    I agree. There was zero logic in that post. It made no sense, but an awesome non-sequitur.

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