Does anybody still believe in God and the Bible?

by tornapart 218 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  sabastious

  Sab - I love how you keep trying to make room for woo by claiming that science doesn't really know anything for sure.

  The world was very ready to admit that it was possible to go faster than the speed of light. Then it was proven that Einstein is still right. That's a huge testament to the scientific method's credibility. However I believe the scientific community has too broad a definition of pseudoscience. I have read many articles debunking homeopathy and similar types of alleged pseudoscience. Maybe these people are not able to scientfically explain why what's working is working, but that doesn't mean something isn't being healed. Many products that have been thoroughly scientifically debunked have been proven to effect more than the placebo effect allots for. This could be data to support an evolution in the body's ability to heal itself. The placebo effect itself provides evidence that a certain percentage of people will find relief from something that has no connection to their ailment. Is this evidence that they are crazy or exaggerating their ailment? Or could it be that they somehow healed themselves? Spontaneous remission of cancer is very possible and a documented phenomenon. What causes that spontaneous remission? There are answers that leave room for speculation. Why? Because the puzzle of the human brain and it's capabilities is not complete yet.

  There are creatures on this planet that we share genetics with that can eject organs and limbs to feed predators and then just grow them back. There are crustaceans that can regrow whole arms and pincers. Worms that can be separated into different life forms with a knife. You have faith in a rigid use of the scientific method which requires a start, middle and a conclusion. That's not how life works at all. In order to solve a puzzle you might need to start the method in 14 non connected experiments before you see a connection which then changes the results in the 14 experiments. Scientific intuition is diminished when lost in the details. Progress towards any goal often comes in spikes which can be missed when zeroed in on non specifics.

  -Sab
• 

  poopsiecakes

  I get the feeling like your believing times are reminiscent of an sober person reflecting upon past alcoholism.

  ummmm no, it's not like that at all darlin. At least not for me. How do you feel when you see people who are still completely enthralled by JW beliefs? Imagine yourself having a conversation with one and it's soooo clear to you but they will defend it despite all evidence to the contrary. That's how it feels.

  Since divesting myself of the NEED to believe in something, I don't see myself as a glass half empty person at all. It's actually enriched my life and when I don't know - I say I don't know. Then I think about it, look at things from all sides, draw a logical conclusion and carry on with my life which is all about making human connections and being loving to everyone, seeing humanity for what it is and appreciating all sides of what that means. I've learned to not judge others - something that can be a challenge for people of faith because of the very nature of that faith, and attempting to understand why people do what they do whether good or bad. You don't need a belief in anything higher than yourself to accomplish that.
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  sabastious

  Poopsiecakes, you identified that you needed to believe just for the sake of it. Therefore your path of personal growth involved shedding that unnecessary weight. The path of another person, however, could be that they are searching for an explanation to an unexplained experience. Say that person has exhausted the methods of science and has to either concede between the conclusions of a) ancient aliens b) hidden government technology c) personal insanity d) supernatural occurence e) everyone is insane f) matrix g) this really could go to z.

  I mean some people have seen some crazy sh*t. Do you expect all of them to just assume they are off their rocker?

  -Sab
• 

  tornapart

  To scatteredsheep, I have sent you a message. :)
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  EntirelyPossible

  Many atheists are very quick to dismiss entire concepts because of a scientific truth that will likely change in the near future.

  Such as?

  The hardest thing for a scientist to do in today's world is to attempt to discover the next stone in the sequence because of the unnecessary ruthlessness in the contemporary scientific community which are now following militant, tyrannical atheism based science.

  Ah, so you would prefer less scrutiny and double checking in science, in things like medicine, drugs, flight systems, GPS, etc? Don't double, triple, quadruple check? Just get it to where you feel like it should work pretty well and go?

  It's these "archaic" spiritual circles that militant atheists want banished from the earth as soon as possible.

  No one ones spiritual people banished as far as I know. You just keep dipping your toes in the realm of science, get them burned by your ignorance of it and then write ill-informed poorly constructed screeds like this, all the while living a life of benefits from the very science you whine about.

  These militant atheists have finally gained control over their lives and minds after so much chaos.

  I don't see any scientists rounding up religions people and saying they will die in judgement from the army of science. Of course, Jesus/Allah/Jehovah people proclaim that is exactly what will happen to those darn atheist scientists providing the comfy, healthier lifestyle you seem to enjoy.

  Dude, get a grip. No one is telling you that you can't beleive. You just keep wanting to pretend the Bible is scientifically accurate and keep pretending that you get science when you don't.

  If you don't want to get the heat, stay out the kitchen.
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  I have read many articles debunking homeopathy and similar types of alleged pseudoscience. Maybe these people are not able to scientfically explain why what's working is working, but that doesn't mean something isn't being healed.

  Well there's the problem. If something was being healed, it should be easy to show that people treated with homeopathy and nothing else are healed at a better rate than doing nothing and a rate somewhere near current medicinal practices. There is no data showing that. In fact, the existing data shows that homeopathy shows no better rates of healing than placebos. The math shows it ISN'T working.

  You have faith in a rigid use of the scientific method which requires a start, middle and a conclusion. That's not how life works at all.

  That's also not how science works. It's a rigid method, but it needs intuition, leaps of thinking, open minded-ness to work. You continue to decry the scientific method and have no idea how it works.

  I mean some people have seen some crazy sh*t. Do you expect all of them to just assume they are off their rocker?

  Absolutely not. But "no current explanation" does not equal "God did it" or "science doesn't work". It could mean they didn't see what they thought they saw, for one.
• 

  Scatteredsheep

  Tornapart,

  Just replied to your message. Thanks again!

  Scatteredsheep
• 

  sabastious

  Dude, get a grip. No one is telling you that you can't beleive. You just keep wanting to pretend the Bible is scientifically accurate and keep pretending that you get science when you don't.

  Science is elegantly simple and I do get it. I am not a professional scientist although I'd like to be some day. I'd never ask anyone to take my words over anyone elses by default. I believe philosophy is an elegant tool for science. A tool that is locked in the storehouse for many it seems. Why do you get that I believe that I want the Bible to be scientifically accurate? I'd like it to sill hold meaning in my life beyond some sort of misguided desperation. You seem to believe this want creates a preconcieved mindset for me. You are right about that. I want to find value in the Bible as a whole work, is there something wrong with that?

  Check out the first part of Revelation:

  Revelation 1

  Prologue

  1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

  Greetings and Doxology

  4 John,

  To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

  Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

  To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

  7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
  and “every eye will see him,
  even those who pierced him”;
  and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
  So shall it be! Amen.

  8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

  The document was included the in Biblical cannon for a reason. The conclusion to the bible starts out addressing ALL of humanity. It's first words reference the people who read it and hear it which is completely vague or "broad." At this point in time the book is freely available for anyone to read. The writer takes this is into account, why? The book mentions "all peoples, nations, tribes and tongues" several times.

  The Watchtower does essentially the same thing. In their previous Awake magazines they had a statement about "God's promise" that the gerenation of 1914 will not pass away before the end of the last days. That generation has came and went and now the Watchtower doctrine has changed their teachings. But the Revelation document still stays the same. The people who wrote it, and their cultures, are long since gone, but their words, from their ancient perspectives, were written down for future generations like ours and beyond.

  Do you just explain all these deep rooted spiritual cultures as all just a bunch of loonies? You think that they didn't test for the validity in things? There were shysters back then too so there must have been ways to validate a claim. The stuff that was comissioned to be written down and claimed to be from the mouth of God, in my opinion, has some sort of intrinsic weight to it.

  If what was written down by these people cannot be proven to be some sort of entertainment then you have to either call them shysters or the real deal. How can we discredit them by saying it was all fake? It feels unthinkable. It seems reasonable to try to retain some value from something that was held so dear for so long.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  Absolutely not. But "no current explanation" does not equal "God did it" or "science doesn't work". It could mean they didn't see what they thought they saw, for one.

  There are reported scenarios where thousands of people have seen the same unexplained phenomenon. Many people on this planet are left with verified yet unexplained phenomenon. Do you have any experiences like that?

  -Sab
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  EntirelyPossible

  I want to find value in the Bible as a whole work, is there something wrong with that?

  Nothing. Nothing at all.

  Why do you get that I believe that I want the Bible to be scientifically accurate?

  Because you write things like ... "If what was written down by these people cannot be proven to be some sort of entertainment then you have to either call them shysters or the real deal."

  AND you get science backwards in that statement. The onus isn't on me to prove the writings not inspired. You make the claim they are, the onus is on you.

  How can we discredit them by saying it's all fake? No one it saying it's all fake. There are probably some kernels of truth in the Bible. I just don't live my life by that chance. And some of the stories are great, the baby murdering, the incest, slavery, slave murder, lying, stealing, whores. That's some great stuff, man.