Sol--you are good to go.
Why do people pretend good things about Jesus ?
by mP 418 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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King Solomon
NC said:
Sol--you are good to go.
Is that a threat, just like you threatened others here today, and ran them off the board, too? You're NOT the boss of ME, or ANY of us!!!
That's the last straw: I'M OUTTA HERE, UNLESS the mods decide to do the right thing and take care of the problem on JWN, YOU, NC, the most HOSTILE poster on JWN, EVER!!!
EVER!!!!!
Oh, wait: I see you're talking about the other place. Never-mind.... Gotcha, thanks! ;)
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NewChapter
Knock it off Sol, before I pound you into the ground like a nail.
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mP
A few people have said that Jesus was not pro slavery because he didnt own slaves. Given that Jesus was a poor carpenter its highly unlikely anyone in his trade had any slaves, they were simply happy to live in a shack and have enough food for today and tomorrow.
I will however attempt to show this argument is poor, by drawing a parallel that is closer in history and location, namely slavery in the south. The facts are that the black slaves during that time were a minority of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1860_United_States_Census
The United States Census of 1860 was the eighth Census conducted in the United States . It determined the population of the United States to be 31,443,321 — an increase of 35.4 percent over the 23,191,875 persons enumerated during the 1850 Census . The total population included 3,953,761 slaves.
The census shows that about 1 in 8 were slaves. Given that most slaves lived in plantations which often contained tens if not hundreds of slaves this means that very few rich whites actually had slaves. The maths shows that the vast majority of whites did not have slaves simply because there was not enough to go around. However we have the absurd situation that the entire southern population was willing to die for this right, even though the common man did not have any himself. He was fighting for the rich landowner, whilst personally taking no advantage.
I dont wish to carry an argument that eventually the common southern who also lived in a shack and had no slaves did benefit somehow, they probably did, however whatever gains they made are hardly a smart trade to chance onces life. Lets not forget fighting that war required these very poor people to abandon their families and travel for months and years.
The only excuse all these southers were so passionate was obviously not material gain, but rather they believed the Bible required them to continue this institution.
Given the example of the south, and establishing the mindset, the rich obviously wanted slaves for their personal gain, while the poor were too brainwashed by religion to accept without question. We see this same logic in the Jesus character. Everybody in those times accepted slavery because thats what they knew.
However lets focus on Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome
During the period of Roman imperial expansion, the increase in wealth amongst the Roman elite and the substantial growth of slavery transformed the economy. [15] According to modern day calculations, there were upwards of two to three million slaves in Italy by the end of the 1st century BC, about 35% to 40% of Italy's population. [15] Indeed, one of the main uses for slaves was as agricultural labor.
Almost half of all people within the Roman empire were slaves. If Jesus was really a social revolutionary, how could he be so blind and ignore the largest most socially disadvantaged group after women. I dont wish to comment on women, but we all know ancient societies in the middle east and even today are exceptionally cruel and harsh on women. With these two social groups jesus basically ignored 3/4 of the entire populace.
- So who was he actually promising good times too if he was so blind to see the pain and suffering of most of his fellow humans ?
- If he was the sun of God, the excuse that he was afraid of consequences from the elite slave owners is just pathetic ?
- If Jesus as second God, could prophecy, how is it he failed to realise that countless of generations would use the Bible to legitimize slavery ?
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NewChapter
That's interesting. Many southerners are still fighting for the rich white guys, and voting against their own interests, because we have a LOT of poverty in the south. They don't like interference from the federal government---and if that means giving up their foodstamps---well in truth, I don't think they fully realize that is what it means. But it is the bible belt----
NC
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mP
Jesus did endorse the Torah. At no stage did he state that it had been corrupted but rather he said it will last forever. If corrupt greedy Jews in the past had edited the Torah and added words about slaves, then how come the many many prophets never criticized these portions but rather kept them ? In fact many prophets, continued this tradition of hatred and greed. The jewish stories just love the tell of expeditions or raids of neighbours to capture, rape and pillage all with gods blessing. These accounts number literally in the dozens accounting for significant amounts of the OT.
Jesus said a lot of things but at no stage did he state the Torah and holy writings had been corrupted. He actually said the complete opposite, which shows he was comfortable and happy with its entirety including slave holding. We can read the text and see that Jesus was a real believer, he conducted himself and followed all the customs that other Jews did. At no stage would anyone accuse him of being a bad Jew. He believed the law, never corrected it.
If it was corrupted he should have corrected it and told everybody. The only conclusion we can honestly make is he didnt considering slavery wrong, and thats why he didnt say anything about it. We have pages and pages of stupid geneologies that dont even make sense in Mt and Lk, Jesus said a lot of other stuff whats the trouble in adding a simple few lines stating slavery was wrong.
Stop making excuses and face the facts in black and white.
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NewChapter
Of course, MP. It only becomes an issue when we try to invent a lighter, brighter Jesus. Using chosen scriptures to argue that scripture is corrupt is just-------I don't know. Unreasonable.
Like when people sing that song about Jesus loves me this I know, because the bible tells me so
It's like singing, The bible's wrong, this I know, cuz the bible tells me so.
It is incredibly circular.
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mP
I think sab said:
something to the effect that Jesus corrected Peter that fighting was wrong.
MP:
I contend the scriptures actually show the complete opposite.
Im summary, its far more honest to realise that Jesus was simply realising and acting carefully. He realised that his group was outnumbered by a much larger better trained Roman force. They could not win. Peter and others were too stupid to see this, thus he needed to reinforce this point.
- WHy Peter felt the need to carry a sword after all the miracles, this is of course unexplainable ?
- Why they had so little trust is never everaddressed. Xians today claim pacificism but the apostles are a bunch of thugs ?
- Why do xians take advise, when the supposed authors who are characters in these stories dont believe and fail is one of lifes mysteries ?
I have included a portion of the text, below. There is another text in Lk but it says equally little.
John 18:
18:10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Jesus's Trial18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? 18:12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him, ..
as a side note the gospels lie, Mt says jesus said nothing and yet further on this chapter of John jesus answers a bunch of questions. Ive add this only to show the compelte contrasting stories of the gospels.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/27.html#14
27:13 Then said Pilate unto him, Hearest thou not how many things they witness against thee? 27:14 And he answered him to never a word ; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly. 27:15 Now at that feast the governor was wont to release unto the people a prisoner, whom they would. -
tec
Tams, r u just pulling my leg, quoting Ezekiel, AFTER acting like a purist who's concerned about extra-torahic errors? You DO realize Ezekiel is NOT part of the torah, the book that Jesus endorsed?
I don't need it... but you apparently do. To see that some of what the Israelites taught is in conflict with some other things that are written.
So how do you know who to listen to?
You look at Christ. The Truth and living Word of God.
You just cannot be serious, OR you are, but you're ignorant of the very basics of what your beloved Savior Jesus was an expert on, and knew inside and out (if you believe the Gospels).
You know only what is written (and who knows the context, how something has been translated wrong, scribed wrong, tampered with), what others have concluded based on the same things (many of which commentaries are in conflict themselves)... and you think that you know the truth based on these?
There is no consensus on God, partly because all sorts of people look all around at other things to come to their conclusions... instead of looking JUST at the One Image of God. His Son. The Truth and living Word of God. You don't need to look anywhere else if you see Him.
And you, Sol, don't know Him. How can you? You don't even believe He exists.
So I am sure you will not mind if I do not put much stock in who you think He is. I would rather just get to know Him, himself.
Peace,
tammy
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tec
Using chosen scriptures to argue that scripture is corrupt is just-------I don't know. Unreasonable.
Like when people sing that song about Jesus loves me this I know, because the bible tells me so
It's like singing, The bible's wrong, this I know, cuz the bible tells me so.
It is incredibly circular.
So is... the bible is right, this I know, cuz the bible tells me so...
Hence... the Spirit teaching and guiding one into all truth.
Peace,
tammy
Jesus's Trial