by mP 418 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
So is... the bible is right, this I know, cuz the bible tells me so...
INDEED! Which is why I see that it is unreasonable to take this extremely flawed piece of writing and try to decide which parts are 'true' which really means which parts will you 'accept'.
It is not completely useless though. It is a historical document. It is only useless as some kind of spiritual guide. I don't buy into the Book of the Dead either, but it certainly teaches me about a culture long gone.
NC said:
Knock it off Sol, before I pound you into the ground like a nail.
But wait a minute: nails don't even need to be pounded to penetrate into...howwww, whyyyy, would anyoneeeee, dooo thatttt???? It doesn't even make sense! NEVER-mind....
That's interesting. Many southerners are still fighting for the rich white guys, and voting against their own interests, because we have a LOT of poverty in the south.
Not just in the South... Many voters support ideas like lower taxation on the wealthy, even though they personally have no hope of EVER being in that tax bracket. So why do they do it? It's called 'aspirational voting', thinking that if vote like they're wealthy, it will somehow translate into their actually becoming wealthy... Goofy, but it's really no different from those who think that if they really convince themselves that Jesus exists, then he WILL exist.
Sorry, but life is not fueled by our dreams and fantasies. Anyone who holds on to such delusions are simply setting themselves for disappointment after disappointment (at least, until they experience an epiphany that tells them that Peter Pan isn't real).
You are right, I don't get to tell you that, but I have a right to speculate. Do you believe Jesus was good?
Why does what I believe matter?
we have a LOT of poverty in the south
Where in the south?
INDEED! Which is why I see that it is unreasonable to take this extremely flawed piece of writing and try to decide which parts are 'true' which really means which parts will you 'accept'.
Same reasoning for using it to determine that Christ and God are 'bad' or whatever else.
Hence... once again... the Spirit.
It is not completely useless though. It is a historical document. It is only useless as some kind of spiritual guide. I don't buy into the Book of the Dead either, but it certainly teaches me about a culture long gone.
It is a cool historical document... detailed in the rich culture of the Israelites (and others). At the very least you get to know what the people thought... I always found that incredibly interesting as well.
The inspired writings (prophets, etc... inspired as in 'in spirit' when the person saw or heard something from the spirit) are also interesting and can guide if you understand.
Christ is a spiritual guide... and the witness testimonies to Him do a good job in showing his teachings and deeds.
I realize that we do not agree and that is fine.
But I have learned much from Christ. I have learned to forgive (more so than before). I have learned to be free (from lies, from religious trappings)... and also be free to love anyone and everyone, to let go of anger or impatience (I fail sometimes, but I let go so much faster than I ever did before). I have learned not to fear this world, or God, nor disease (i never feared death)... nor to despair, and I am learning more from Him all the time. I have learned to give, I have learned to speak without fear (still learning this one). I have hope and strength and peace and comfort in Him.
I have learned so much about God thought and from Christ. Not from writings alone... but much from the Spirit of Christ, that i would not have come to on my own, just reading the bible. I am comforted and at peace, and also filled with joy, for what i have been shown.
Peace,
tammy
at least, until they experience an epiphany that tells them that Peter Pan isn't real).
D:
Why does what I believe matter?
Because you believe that Jesus condoned bronze age slavery, right? Do you think he was a good person even though you personally don't condone slavery in any form? Do you believe your morality to be superior to that of Jesus Christ of Nazarene? I want to know because it would appeaer that you do feel you have superior morals since you believe slavery in all forms is wrong and Christ apparently did not.
-Sab
Tammy ses:
And you, Sol, don't know Him. How can you? You don't even believe He exists.
So I am sure you will not mind if I do not put much stock in who you think He is. I would rather just get to know Him, himself.
If you haven't read a headline lately, there's no way of getting to know him now: he's been dead for 2,000 yrs.
Aside from the inconvenience of his being dead and all, you forget that once I DID believe in him; I felt his presence, his comfort, his love.
And you know what? It felt pretty damned goooood, basking in the warm glow of his loving kindness, warmth, grace, compassion, wisdom, mercy: all of it. I imagined him when I was being persecuted (like when two bullies who tormented me that year because I didn't salute the flag tried to prod me into a fight on the playground; I silently prayed for strength, and they gave up after I repeatedly said I wouldn't fight, over and over).
I imagined him when I did something I thought would please him and God, and felt he was proud of me. My own father lived away (parents were divorced), so he was maybe like a step-father, the proxy male-authority figure who was always there. I was raised by a single mom, and there were four kids in the house.
So I know what you feel, Tams: everyone here does, too! We ALL felt it...
Some here probably would continue feeling his warmth, but got DFed (which is a blessing in disguise: they were forced to go cold-turkey on their addiction to Jesus Juice™), others still sought the same high except from another Juice™ dealer (pushing another flavor of Juice™), and others felt disillusioned and rejected, condemned by the Jesus whom they loved, etc. Some don't experience anything except relief, some don't think about it, and others are angry, or riddled with guilt. Everybody has a different story.
Some of us listened to 1 Cor 13:11: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me." That's what happened to me: I grew up, and fortunately didn't have as strong family pressure to continue, so I grew up with a way to escape. I was a good reader, and read books that challenged the belief system (Orwell's 1984 comes to mind: required reading, if anyone hasn't read it).
My intellectual curiosity led me to a world I never imagined existed in the JWs, and I literally would have to experience MAJOR HEAD TRAUMA to ever consider believing in what I 100% KNOW to be a seductive but massive lie, built up over 1,000's of years, one that is SO GRAND that it's not fully comprehended by many people. I'd have to forget everything I've learned about the natural World, and the accumulated knowledge handed down to us from prior generations (Galileo, DaVinci, Copernicus, Descartes, Watson and Crick, Einstein, etc, etc) that I could never unring THAT bell.
Once you have gained knowledge of how things REALLY DO WORK (eg biochemistry, physiology, genetics, etc), there's no putting a mind back behind bars, asking it to believe ancient superstitions.
I have learned to forgive (more so than before). I have learned to be free (from lies, from religious trappings)... and also be free to love anyone and everyone, to let go of anger or impatience (I fail sometimes, but I let go so much faster than I ever did before). I have learned not to fear this world, or God, nor disease (i never feared death)... nor to despair, and I am learning more from Him all the time. I have learned to give, I have learned to speak without fear (still learning this one). I have hope and strength and peace and comfort in Him.
......................... I am comforted and at peace, and also filled with joy, for what i have been shown.
Are those not the goals that pretty much all humans have? To become better people?
So how do you explain someone who can say all those same things, but has arrived there without hearing any voices? Without being a Christian?
If we can reach those goals without requiring a "voice" to tell us how to behave, then what is the benefit of hearing the voices or beleiving in Christ?
Or do you believe that no one TRULY reaches those goals without Christ, so therefore you have achieved a superior goal than anyone else?
Or are they LYING about having achieved those goals in their life?
If anyone who tries to be a better person can achieve those goals WITHOUT Jesus, then why do we need him?
Tammy said:
But I have learned much from Christ. I have learned to forgive (more so than before). I have learned to be free (from lies, from religious trappings)... and also be free to love anyone and everyone, to let go of anger or impatience (I fail sometimes, but I let go so much faster than I ever did before). I have learned not to fear this world, or God, nor disease (i never feared death)... nor to despair, and I am learning more from Him all the time. I have learned to give, I have learned to speak without fear (still learning this one). I have hope and strength and peace and comfort in Him.
You are doing yourself a great disservice if you've stopped with Christ, IMO, and haven't studied the other philosophers whom have offered inspiration in the past, i.e. Aristotle, Plato, Mohammed, Buddha, Zoroaster, Hermes Mercurius Trismegistus, even poets like Kahill Gibran, etc.
Jesus certainly doesn't have a monopoly on the market of philosophy/theology, ethics, morals, etc. He wasn't the first, and hardly is the last.
