Jesus and the Mosaic Law... (page 2)

mP

and its downright dishonest to claim he anulled the torah.

Satanus

It is what it is. Christians have a tremendous cognitive dissonence to continuously deal w. It's no wonder they are arguing, all the time, w each other. As well, it drives the need to convert others.

S

Deputy Dog

I don't want to speak for TEC. But, the bible does say:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

and

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.

The gospel according to Matthew is one that is hard to argue against, it is the most Jewish among the synoptics. If you are foundamentalist Christian, you have to either believe Jesus' words here according to the gospel, or Paul's later theology of grace. It's either Jesus' words or Paul's. Paul's teachings are what radically changed the theology of law to grace. I found myself in this struggle after learning the TTATT. I whole-heartedly believe Paul's view of love and grace, it sounds beautiful but... it runs into issues with Jesus' words about the law as mP demonstrated above. I started out trying to be a Christian, then evolved into a non-foundamentalist Christian, and now Agnostic. I don't see how a loving God would require people to jump through the hoops of hermeneutics, ancient law codes, doctrine, etc. to be saved. We are simple creatures and not everyone is intellectually curious enough to find truth through ancient texts. Belief systems entirely depend on where you were born and raised on this planet.

P.S. Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that observance of the Sabbath was to be discontinued, it's part of the 10 commandments!

Deputy Dog

Emery

It's either Jesus' words or Paul's.

I see no conflict at all. It's both.

I whole-heartedly believe Paul's view of love and grace, it sounds beautiful but... it runs into issues with Jesus' words about the law as mP demonstrated above.

I don't believe you understood Paul's teaching. Why stop with verse 19? The Pharisees were honestly trying to keep the law. Jesus said that trying wasn't enough, so he kept the law, and gives us his righteousness as a gift. His righteousness far exceeds the (self) righteousness of the Pharisees.

Mat 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

This was also taught in the old testament. Jesus is the "righteous branch"

Jer 23:5
"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Jer 23:6
In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'

PSacramento

Jesus did not abolish the Law, yet He claimed to fullfill it.

Jesus did not abolish the Law, yet He "cleared" up HOW the Law was being kept for "it's own sake" instead of the sake of Israel.

Deputy Dog

PSac

Jesus did not abolish the Law, yet He "cleared" up HOW the Law was being kept for "it's own sake" instead of the sake of Israel.

So you think the law could be kept? If so what would one need Jesus for?

transhuman68

From Bart D. Ehrman's 'A Historical Introduction To The Early Christian Writings:

Matthew, an anonymous Jewish leader of the Christian community (assuming that his strong literary skills, indicative of a higher education, gave him a place of prominence there), penned a Gospel narrative to show that Jesus was in fact the Jewish messiah, who like Moses gave the law of God to his people. More precisely, he was the prophet like Moses who gave the Jewish people the true interpretation of Moses’ Law, and beyond that he was a Savior who died for the sins of his people (1:21) and was vindicated by God by being raised from the dead. Moreover, Matthew went out of his way to affirm more strongly than his predecessors Mark and Q that Jesus did not annul the ancient Law of Moses but fulfilled it himself and insisted that all his followers, both Jews and Gentiles, do so as well. This they could do by holding on to Jesus’ teachings and by following the principle at the heart of the Torah, given long ago to Jesus’ forerunner Moses: to love God with their entire being and their neighbor as much as themselves, “for on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

mP

PSAC:

Jesus did not abolish the Law, yet He claimed to fullfill it.

Jesus did not abolish the Law, yet He "cleared" up HOW the Law was being kept for "it's own sake" instead of the sake of Israel.

mP:
Firstly i think your confusing the law and Messiah prophecies. The law had rules about stuff, like you cant murder, you must shave your beard like this. The law appears in the portion of the Hebrew Bible called the Torah. The so called prophecies about a Messiah which are applied appear in the writings of the prophets which are outside the Torah. The two are completely separate. How exactly does someone fulfill a set of rules about not murdering, not stealing and so on ? Im making a bold statement but i seriously doubt Jesus was the first Jew to never break a law of the Torah. The Law of Moses is a pain with all its nonsense but its not impossible to go thru life and never steal or murder. All babies by definition never break any laws and the same goes for most kids.

The specialnesss of jesus is of course the supposed prophecies his life and actions fulfilled. They are the supposed pointers to Jesus, not hte laws of Moses.

mP

-> trans:

My previous post to PSAC applies to you equally well. The law is separate from the prphets. None of the scriptures xians quote about prophecies about jesus come from Moses. Moses did not write Messianic prophecies he wrote laws about jewish society, offerings etc.

If i am wrong please show some scriptures with direct quotes, id love to see them.

Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

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