Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • mP
    mP

    PSac:

    You keep saying tha Jesus says the law is perfect, where?

    mP:

    There are a few but i think the scripture below is good enuff and goes beyond doubt. All bolding is mine and added for emphasis.

    Mat 5:17-19

    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/matthew/5

    Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; 18 for truly I say to ? YOU ? that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. 19 Whoever, therefore, breaks one of these least commandments and teaches mankind to that effect, he will be called ‘least’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens. As for anyone who does them and teaches them, this one will be called ‘great’ in relation to the kingdom of the heavens

    17/ J says quite clearly he did not come to destroy or replace the law.

    18/ J says quite clearly here everybody should follow the law down to the letter.

    19/ Jesus says the law will last forever.

    Im not sure how you can possible think from that scripture that J is saying anything but the law is perfect and will last forever. Im not even twisting anything its there in black and white.

  • mP
    mP

    x

  • mP
    mP

    The mosaic law had its glory but far inferior to the ultimate glory it foreshadowed 2 Corinthians 3:7-18

    Shalom

    mP:

    So your taking the opinion of Paul over Jesus ? That doesnt sound right to me, a mere mortal having authority over God or son of God. Anyway whose to say Paul even knew Jesus or that he is telling the truth that he was chosen. If you read all of Pauls writings he never mentions a single thing about Jesus life on earth. No Bethlehem, virgin birth, killing of the infants, Mary, Joseph, 12 apostles, etc etc.

    I cahllenge you to find such a scripture. Ultimately Paul is not writing about our Jesus of the gospels, he didnt know him, at best he knows a totally different character and certain that does not match withour super man.

  • mP
    mP

    PSAC:

    It may be that it is these commandments that He now gave that are the ones to not be annuled.

    mP:

    He did not give any new commands. He simply highlights and comments on a few. No where does he imply these commentaries are a replacement. Im sure we both agree that Jesus would have said idols are banned. If he was replacing the entire Torah he should have mentioned this as #1 or #2. He doesnt because its a commentary with exerpts and not a replacement or listing.

    The love thy neighbour comes from Lev 19:18

    http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/leviticus/19

    8 “‘You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself. I am Jehovah.

  • mP
    mP

    DeputyDog:

    mP:

    First of all, I'm NOTData Dog

    mP: Apologises in my rush i mistyped, not sure where i got that from.
    (Jeremiah 23:5,6) http://www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/jeremiah/23 “Look! There are days coming,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I will raise up to David a righteous sprout. And a king will certainly reign and act with discretion and execute justice and righteousness in the land. 6 In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel itself will reside in security. And this is his name with which he will be called, Jehovah Is Our Righteousness.”

    In fact this text says the exact opposite, Jeremiah is saying the law wll be part of the perfect king of Judah. WIhtout a direct scripture from Jeremiah telling us the Torah will be replaced in his ideal kingdom this assertion by you is complete wrong. The jews in the OT and Jesus himself believed the law was perfect. Was the Torah difficult sure, but thats not part of the original assertion at the beginning of the post. Maybe you dont like it but that dodenst change the fact that they did not say otherwise. Its like Shariah law and muslims, all the nutters follow it and say its from God and perfect just like the Koran. Sorry this scripture doesnt come close to cutting it.
  • Ding
    Ding

    mP,

    I think the first scripture (Galatians 3:21) means that the law is like a cancer screening test that shows us there is something seriously wrong inside us.

    As Paul says in Romans 7:18 it was through trying to keep the law that he learned "...that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it."

    That is, we can't even live up to our own stated moral codes, let alone the law of God, and certainly not the standards Jesus enunciated in the Sermon on the Mount.

    That's what the law was designed to do; it was our tutor to show us our need for the great physician (Christ).

    But trying to become righteous by keeping the law is as futile as trying to get cured of cancer by taking more and more cancer screening tests.

    Galatians 2:15: "...if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

    The law shows us our need to be transformed from the inside out by the Holy Spirit in order to live the kind of righteous life that God desires. The goal of this transformation is to enable us to keep the requirements of the law and go beyond them. Jesus described this transformation to Nicodemus as the new birth (John 3) and to the Samaritan woman as living water (John 4). This is the solution for everyone, not for some small "anointed" group of 144,000.

    Romans 8:1-11: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you."

    To me, the saddest thing about the Memorial is that the WTS has the vast majority of JWs convinced that this transformation is not for them. To the contrary, it is the whole point of the law -- showing us all our need.

  • mP
    mP

    SoonToBe:

    Some here have cited the letter to the Romans. Romans was written to the gentile Christians. The emperor Claudius had exiled the Jews from Rome (including Peter), and all that were left among the Christians were gentiles.

    mP:

    Pauls writings dont count in this clarification. Personally cancelling the law of Moses is a big statement, it should have been said by Jesus personally and not Paul a mere mortal. It sounds really wrong that Jesus could have forgotten to say such an important thing and yet he wasted time telling us about paying taxes multiple times. The only fair conclusion from me is to think his important message is in the gospels and they have priority. Paul is additional stuff.

  • mP
    mP

    Ding:

    ts purpose isn't to cure us; it's to show us we need the great physician to

    mP:

    Sure the Torah was difficult and so on, but that doesnt change the fact that you are quoting Paul and ignoring what Jesus said. Surely such a big statement or change should have been mentioned properly by Jesus.

    Ding:

    Galatians 2:15: "...if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

    mP:

    Your text from Gal above and Romans again doesnt mention replacement, it jsut says the law is difficult and Jesus died for us. NO direct comment here.

    Show me a scirpture that says here is the new law the torah is out. Its that simple.

    Ding quoting Romans:

    For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 1

    MP: If anything this says the Torah is still active as there is no mention of any other law of God in the Bible. If im wrong scrptures please.

  • Ding
    Ding

    mP,

    The Mosaic law was given to the Jews, not to Gentiles. But for neither group was it the way of salvation. It's not that there's something wrong with the law; it's that there's something wrong with us.

    Also, it's not a matter of whether we should live by righteous standards. Of course we should. In fact, in the Sermon on the Mount Jesus went far beyond the externals required by the law of Moses. The question is how we get the power to live the kind of righteous life God requires. Self-effort is not enough.

    It was Jesus, not Paul, who taught the need for a new birth (John 3).

    Surely Peter knew what Jesus taught. Here is what Peter said in Acts 15. In Acts 15:5-11, "... some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." 6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God who knows the heart bore witness to them, giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us; 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you make trial of God by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

  • tec
    tec

    Repeating for mP:

    Romans 10:4

    "For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God." NLT

    "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." NIV

    Galatians 3:24

    "So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith."

    Peace,

    tammy

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