Jesus and the Mosaic Law...

by mP 128 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Im making a bold statement but i seriously doubt Jesus was the first Jew to never break a law of the Torah. The Law of Moses is a pain with all its nonsense but its not impossible to go thru life and never steal or murder.

    Yea, that’s a bold statement alright. You can’t be serious. The Law wasn’t only about murder and theft. How long could a person ‘love the LORD GOD with ALL his heart soul and mind’? How long could a person worship without being distracted?

    How many could keep this standard?

    Mat 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.'22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

    All babies by definition never break any laws and the same goes for most kids.

    Again, you have to be ‘kidding’. Is this thread about where do babies go when they die? Because no one could make it to manhood (even age 13) and keep the law according to Jesus.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The Law of ther Torah is a "complex" one because it was given to a Theocratical nation to set it apart from its neighbours BUT it was also given for other reasons as well.

    There are cermonial laws, there are laws only for the priestly class, there are causal laws (If someone does this, then...) which are NOT Laws od permission but Laws that state punishment and things of that nature for offenses ( much like the Laws we have now).

    The orginal "big 10" we expaned upon when the people showed they need more laws and some statutes were even given that were pusposely bad ( as Per Ezekiel) while other laws may have been added by scribes ( As per Jeremiah).

    It is not always clear how Jesus viewed ALL the Laws, he certainly appended to them and even singled out those that were given By Moses as opposed to, persumably, directly from God.

    It seems that at times Jesus takes a common law, like treat youe neighbout like you would yourself, a uses it as a starting point to go beyond what was written, while other times, as in the case of divorce, makes it clear that the Laws ( at least the divorce one) was an accomdationalist one.

  • mP
    mP

    PSAC:

    It is not always clear how Jesus viewed ALL the Laws, he certainly appended to them and even singled out those that were given By Moses as opposed to, persumably, directly from God.

    mP:
    Actually this is wrong, Mat 5:17-19 says quite clearly that the law ( note there is no qualifier saying which part, its treated as a whole) is perfect. It would not make sense to say it was perfect if you knew or felt parts were not. If parts were faulty then he should have said which.

    PSAC:

    The orginal "big 10" we expaned upon when the people showed they need more laws and some statutes were even given that were pusposely bad ( as Per Ezekiel) while other laws may have been added by scribes ( As per Jeremiah)

    mP:

    Your statement about additions is incorrect. The link below gives all 613 and they each have scirptures. These scirptures only refer to books writen by Moses, none by Jeremiah. I cant commnt abiout hte Ezekiel bit without a scripture to read.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

    PSAC:

    The Law of ther Torah is a "complex" one because it was given to a Theocratical nation to set it apart from its neighbours BUT it was also given for other reasons as well.

    There are cermonial laws, there are laws only for the priestly class, there are causal laws (If someone does this, then...) which are NOT Laws od permission but Laws that state punishment and things of that nature for offenses ( much like the Laws we have now).

    mP:

    The history commentary from yourself doesnt change the facts i have been asserting. Interesting yes, but it doesnt change the repeated times jesus said th elaw was perfect and will last forever. If its got bad laws , he shoul dhave communicated more effectively and mentioned this. He seemed to go hard after the Pharisees but couldnt tell us about the faults in the law of Moses. Sorry that doesntmake sense.

  • mP
    mP

    mP:

    Im making a bold statement but i seriously doubt Jesus was the first Jew to never break a law of the Torah. The Law of Moses is a pain with all its nonsense but its not impossible to go thru life and never steal or murder.

    DataDog:

    Yea, that’s a bold statement alright. You can’t be serious. The Law wasn’t only about murder and theft. How long could a person ‘love the LORD GOD with ALL his heart soul and mind’? How long could a person worship without being distracted?

    mP:

    Please read my commentary in all its context. My point is the law of Moses is a set of social, religous and other regulations. It in no way defines prophecy or who the Messiah is. It makes no sense to claim Jesus forfilled the Torah. Even he did, that doesnt mean the law is cancelled. There is no direction in the OT that says this. Many people today , including you and me probabaly never break a law in our home countries, that doesnt mean they are wiped... thats nonsense .

  • mP
    mP

    Mp:

    All babies by definition never break any laws and the same goes for most kids.

    DataDog;

    Again, you have to be ‘kidding’.

    mP:

    A baby who cant walk cant break any law. One needs mobilitty so one can cause harm, and one needs to be able to talk to slander or say the wrong thing.You cant seriously tell me any of the 613 laws can be broken by a baby. Thats stupid. Of course if im wrong give me an example .. the link below lists all 613 laws of Moses.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

    DataDog:

    Is this thread about where do babies go when they die?

    mP:

    Not once have i mentioned the death of anyone... im just saying lots of people are good and never broke any law of Moses. You cant use the law as a qualification to determine the Messiah... its that simple. The so called prphecies about Jesus are outside the law and completely separate. None of the propehcies claimed to be forfilled by Jesus arent even found in the writings of Moses.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    MP, you need to figure out the quote function dude, its a bit hard to read your posts sometimes, especially when you do multipules likes that...

    Ezekiel 20:23-26

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    23 Also I swore to them in the wilderness that I would scatter them among the nations and disperse them among the lands, 24 because they had not observed My ordinances, but had rejected My statutes and had profaned My sabbaths, and their eyes were on the idols of their fathers. 25 I also gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live; 26 and I pronounced them unclean because of their gifts, in that they caused all their firstborn to pass through the fire so that I might make them desolate, in order that they might know that I am the Lord .”’

    Note verse 25.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    As for Matthew 5, it is a facinating chapter of course because it both seems to uphold the law ( and prophest) and still criticise the scribnes and pharisees AND "add" to the Law Jesus' onw view on certain parts, arguably over ruling some.

    17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    It is clear here that Jesus holds the law as unbreakable UNTILL all is accomplished, all meaning, supposedly, the fullfillment of the prophets.

    19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    SOme thing thing this part referes to the Law above, but I don;t think so because, Jesus continues and commands:

    21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not commit murder ’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

    27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall not commit adultery ’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

    31 “It was said, ‘ Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce ’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

    33 “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘ You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord .’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King . 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

    38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘ An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth .’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘ You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    It may be that it is these commandments that He now gave that are the ones to not be annuled.

  • mP
    mP

    PSac:

    Thanks for the scripture.

    mP:

    Apologies i try and use the quote thing but it often screws up for me.

    Regarding Ezekiel, This makes jesus comment about perfection even more stupid as he contradicts Ezekiel. I really dont see how we can somehow accept Ezekiels commentary as a qualifier for Jesus statement. If Jesus meant the law in its entirety was not perfect he should have damn well said so. The prblem is he repeated these thoughts multiple times and never used a qualifier. Given "law" in the text from Jesus means the entire law, thats all we can think. After all where is the list of the perfect law minus the bad imperfect laws. Thats just an excuse an apologist could make, and we know how honest they are.

  • mP
    mP

    PSac:

    It may be that it is these commandments that He now gave that are the ones to not be annuled.

    mP:

    Again he never mentioned the word anulled or anything similar. He just says the law is perfect and as in other parts he came to fulfill the scriptures. The scriptures or prophecies are not the law they are a separate group of writings. The jews even dvidie their bible this way, into 3 parts, the torah , writings and prophets.

  • mP
    mP

    PSAC:

    It is clear here that Jesus holds the law as unbreakable UNTILL all is accomplished, all meaning, supposedly, the fullfillment of the prophets.

    mP:

    Where does it say his fullfillment cancels the law ? This is a thought inserted by you, you cant provide a scripture. Please dont repeat the xian theology because we all know the story but the fact is this cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. The simple answer is of course "show me the scripture" that backs your comment.

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