AAWA, J M E__, and me

by zed is dead 577 Replies latest members private

Marvin Shilmer

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“Marvin...if you had peoples respect before this AAWA crap you risk losing it BECAUSE of continued defense of them after what they have done..and continue to do.
“Defending their actions...could have repercussions on how individuals are now perceived. Individuals that have built up sound reputations based on great work. It takes a lot to build up a reputation...and very little to pull it down.
“I wouldn't be putting my reputation on the line for this lying organisation...defend liars...risk getting tarred with the same brush.
“I haven't been familiar with your work before this...and am certainly not inspired to look at it since this. You are coming accross like their PR representative...who admits they don't even know half the facts and can't be bothered looking. Seems like you'd fit right into AWAA if you aren't already a member.”
still thinking,
I appreciate the good you intend with that advice. But it’s misplaced.
The work I do neither needs nor solicits respect from JWN or its participants. None of my work is premised on my authority or reputation.
Honestly, it still eludes me why people think my search into this matter is a defense of anyone or anything. Do folks around here even know what a defense looks like? Why is my asking questions and asking for evidence perceived as defending someone or something? What’s happening that folks think like this?
My work is not performed for the benefit of persons who need to be inspired to read it.
My work is performed for the benefit of persons who need that work.
Marvin Shilmer
Simon

Marvin: If you were a fader who had been added, without your knowledge or permission, to a facebook group where your personal identity would be revealed to known WTS apologists, general nutters and anyone who could be a WTS representative, how would you feel if the people who had done this:
1. denied they'd done it.
2. claimed other people had done it instead of them.
3. after finally admitting they'd done it, claimed you weren't really harmed and there was no risk
4. after having the potential dangers explained, said they weren't going to do anything 'cause it sounded like too much effort
5. after being told of people who had been outed, told everyone that they were just liars
6. used a lame excuse to stop communicating and went silent other than to call people names
THAT is where we are with the AAWA and why there is so much bad feeling.
brinjen

Exactly. It's not so much the mistakes that they made but the way in which they continue to deny and cover up that's the issue. It also tends to make their "mistake" not appear as such and more a deliberate act.
My own personal real life experience (and I said it before)... bitter pills don't taste near as bad once you swallow them. Admit you have done the wrong thing, apologise and fix it. Take steps to make sure something like that can never happen again and you know what? You can even gain more respect than you had before if you handle the matter correctly.
No evidence of such from the AAWA.
Marvin Shilmer

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“Marvin. Please answer my question, it requires no research and addresses a simple fact based on what you've been suggesting.”
Simon,
I think your question is something I already answered before getting to this post. If not let me know. I’m making an honest appraisal and don’t want to miss something important.
“Also, please use the word 'alleged' with any claim by the AAWA so things are fair.”
I always try to use language fairly by at all times making sure information I shared is presented for what it is. In the case of what’s been told me by AAWA volunteers, I’ve shared is as what they’ve told me. If anyone is unclear that this is alleged to AAWA volunteers I’m making it clear now that that’s what it means. What any AAWA volunteer says to me is no more than what they are telling me. Until something’s been proven its words and no more.
“Also, we've been through this endless circular questions-but-no-answers rigmarole before with Cedars which is why people are impatient when you seen to be doing exactly the same and then coming up with lame reasons not to answer.”
I don’t follow Cedars around. Regardless, however he goes about doing what he does is of no concern to me. There is a method to achieve sound conclusions, and that is the method I employ.
When a subject has my interest, I can be rather dogged about getting to the bottom of it. Whether Cedars takes a similar approach is unknown to me. Notwithstanding that, hopefully he has some training in analysis and logical construction. This is something I’ve not asked him about.
It’s a bit curious to me that folks speak of my asking of question in this discussion as though its endless. I’m unaware of repeating questions to participants after getting solid answers. It’s even more curious that folks here think I’m somehow defending AAWA! If AAWA were doing something untoward the last thing they’d want is someone asking lots of questions! If I were defending AAWA the last thing I’d do is keep the subject alive with questions!
My interest in AAWA is not AAWA. My interest in AAWA is purely pragmatic. I talked about that earlier in this discussion hence see no need to repeat myself here (not that you asked).
Marvin Shilmer
Glander

It has become obvious that AAWA was (and is?) motivated by something other than it's noble sounding mission statement.
No one will ever co-op the diverse group of former Jehovah's witnesses. We are everyman who has moved on from a bad trip and sincerely tries to warn and help others from this ugly cult.
The very thought of an organization that wants to negotiate with the WTB&TS to... what?... bring them back to life after they quit breathing 30 years ago?....is suspect on it's face.
Simon

The whole Facebook thing just feels like it was rushed out without any proper upfront planning which would be bad for a company selling widgets but terrible for a group dealing with sensitive issues around the WTS.
These failures sent confidence in their plans and processes but the subsequent handling of it is what has really caused the damage though.
fizzywiglet

1. denied they'd done it.
2. claimed other people had done it instead of them.
3. after finally admitting they'd done it, claimed you weren't really harmed and there was no risk
4. after having the potential dangers explained, said they weren't going to do anything 'cause it sounded like too much effort
5. after being told of people who had been outed, told everyone that they were just liars
6. used a lame excuse to stop communicating and went silent other than to call people names
7. Are now going back to step no. 1 for the general public, it sounds like...even though that was thoroughly debunked waaaaay back at the beginning, by their own admission. But now sounds like they're pushing the "fake Facebook page stole our identity" drum again to people who haven't been around and followed the story since the beginning.
8. Claim the people at JWN are just bitter Meany McMeanersons who only complain because we inexplicably all love the Watchtower and hate AAWA and want to see it fail, or else have a personal beef with Cedars, even those of us (like me) who never interacted with him before.
Marvin Shilmer

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“Have you been told that the AAWA people did NOT add people to the facebook group? Because I have been told directly by the AAWA that they DID.
“So, yes or no?”
Simon,
I responded to this question earlier. I am told that AAWA did add people to two Facebook groups. My impression is that being added was not the issue but, rather, that being added without permission and particularly added for public viewing was the issue. I’m told that AAWA did not make private information open for public viewing.
“Also, consider that everything we have discussed on JWN is here for all to read but they have wiped all mention of everything from their site and from they comments in their blog. Why do you think that would be? What do you think that would indicate to you?”
If I presume insincerity then I’d say AAWA was trying to hide something that might hurt AAWA.
If I presume sincerity then I’d say AAWA was trying to hide something that might hurt someone other than AAWA, like some of the good folks here.
In the end I’d rather not presume. I’d rather construct a conclusion based on facts in hand. Then I’ll know whether AAWA is something I’d consider collaborating with down the road, and only then.
Marvin Shilmer
ÁrbolesdeArabia

I would like to say I have enjoyed the level of professionalism I have been reading from Simon and Marvin Shilmer in their exchanges, both are scholars and very good writers. I wish I had their gifts to convey all those clustered thoughts racing through my schizo brain! Thread after thread I have enjoyed the level these two gifted members of JWN speak with, it's rare to see so much participation by the top players on JWN. You two should be authors and I am not kissing no ass, just enjoying how well you two have mastered the use of the English Language and your brain!
"Marvin. Unfortunately, I think you are acting in good faith but being given a story that may not always match what actually happened.
I have no doubt you trust and believe what you have been told but they seem keen to deal with people individually and dehind the scenes which could be because it's easier to give different information to different people without the inconvenience of it having to match facts.
Given that I know of several statements that they have made to different people that are contradictory, can you see why I would by skeptical of what you are telling us, even though it is based on your firsthand conversations? Somewhere along the line, someone just isn't being honest.
Originally we were told the people being added to facebook was not due to the AAWA but because of over enthusiastic volunteers.
They were never forthcoming with any names precisely because it turns out it WAS done by AAWA people." SIMON
This is why they need to be open and honest and why I see zero value in backroom conversations and "trust me, I trust them" type claims. If the truth is going to put them ion a bad light then I'm sorry, they need to rip the plaster off and deal with the short-term pain before, erm, the wound festers and a leg drops off."
I do my best to keep up on all Marvin's postings, I can say with a clear conscience, Marvin has never been a rude, insultive or arrogant person, even though his intellect and scholarship ability would give him reason (according to many of the arrogant asses I have socialized with and their giant degrees, they feel they can trample on others because they have proven themselves in academia.) Marvin is up with these guys and probably would have gotten a double-phD had not this religion got in our ways. Just my two pennies worth, I enjoy reading almost everyone's posts and know we have some people who write when they are not feeling good, Marvin is not one of those people! P.S. I think "SlimBoy" is a big Teddy Bear too, this subject and chaos that ensued should have been cut-off from the Start. I hope we all can remain a happy dysfunctional family once the dust settles brothers and sisters!

"Well if you ain't even got the balls to say who you are insulting I see little reason to respond."

slimboyfat,

I was not attempting to insult anyone. That's your presumptive nonsense. Presumption is fallacy.

Glad we got that cleared up!"
Marvin Shilmer

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“The facebook group was mismanaged, why can't they fix it? Isn't that a pretty simple question to have answered? People have been asking all along - if people were added to a group and the AAWA weren't controlling membership as they should have been then why do they put people at risk instead of just restarting the group? Why have they made this whole thing go on for weeks when it should have been dealt with in minutes.”
Simon,
My best guess in answer to your questions is this:
I think volunteers inside AAWA are trying to “fix it”. I asked and was told that was the case. I’ll add that AAWA is probably by now not overly concerned about discussions at JWN. My efforts to learn from JWN participants in this discussion have been met by a fairly large amount of hostility, sarcasm, anger, nonsense and stupidity, along with helpful information. Sorting through this stuff is frustrating and time-consuming. If my experience is any barometer it could well be the case that level heads inside AAWA have decided to regroup and try doing a better job without wasting time here. I could easily see this given that AAWA’s ultimate success or failure is not tied to what is or is not said or done here. I think JWN participants could help AAWA, but I don’t think that’s essential.
As for efficiency, I wish someone like you had been part of AAWA’s development. It would probably have went much better. But we’re past that. Things are where they are.
“As for what can be salvaged from all this? Really, I think the AAWA are past done and I don't think they could or should be allowed to tout for business and put volunteers and victims at risk if they are unable to manage things in a professional manner. Just look at what they managed to 'achieve' so far?”
I think AAWA ultimate success or failure will boil down to structural integrity, passion, resources and talent. Tomorrow both of us will be forgotten and what has a more robust structure will remain, if sufficient resources, passion and talent are in support.
“Still happy to have a beer with you - beer supecedes all else.”
Good! I’m looking forward to it, and maybe a wee bit more.
Marvin Shimer

AAWA, J M____ E______, and me

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AAWA, J M E__, and me