yea Ty, their circular logic is well known
AAWA, J M____ E______, and me
by zed is dead 577 Replies latest members private
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Tylinbrando
Where is the logic? It is tiresome how something so concise and simple to understand can continuously be debated and scrutinized.
If the AAWA Group membership was rebooted and "invite to the member accepted by the member" was the sole criteria for membership, we would have a clear indication who gives consent to be a member.
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tornapart
Tylin... so the 'overwhelming work involved' wasn't worth it then? They knew beforehand the dangers that were involved! Cedars himself said that he had two identities on FB and was paranoid using it. For fear of somehow being outed I guess.
Anyway your reasoning sound a lot like the 'chocolate cake' answers...
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Tylinbrando
Torn, you misunderstand my position.
The extent of those that were added "without their consent" is overwhelming and not just isolated or few in numbers as Marvin suggests with is Doctor/Disease analogy.
The "overwhelming work" was avoided after the mass "additions" so logically it stands to reason the "overwhelming work" was also not conducted initially to verify that "added" members gave their consent through email.
Sorry if my phrasing was ambiguous to you.
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*lost*
Dearest Marvin - I think I finally 'get you' ,what angle you are coming from on this, what you are looking for and where you want to go with it.
Please don't think we are 'pissing' on you or bashing you.( you know what the root of the frustration is here )
I think the problem here is COMMUNICATION. a barrier so to speak.
It just seems to be getting wrapped up and buried in a copious amount of word usage. Lets just try and nail it down into a simple format, then there can be no confusion.
As it is from my end, not knowing anything about you ( that is your character, honesty, integrity - worth ) as you are a total stranger, made more conplicated as it is text speak. also throw in different cultures, thought processes, terminology, language usage, meaning and understanding, personalities etc. It is a bit of a minefield. which makes Community Work one of the hardest jobs around. Diversity.
Am I on the right track here ? I don't have many posts so I can't keep convo's goin endlessly.
Let's try it this way and see if we can getting any closer to nailing it down.
Organisation - not for profit - supposedly benevolent and philanthropic in nature.
Marvin likes these kinds of projects as they are his thing.
Marvin considers investing time, energy and money into said venture. ( maybe he has been invited to do so )
Marvin is considering all the angles, maybe he is not sure ( maybe it's a trust thing ) maybe he is suspicious. ( aren't we all )
Marvin discovers, all of a sudden controversy errupts surrounding said project and it's managers. ( maybe he was about to hand over a cheque )
This stops Marvin in his tracks and he thinks to himself, what is going on here, something doesn't feel right ( suspicions, trust who knows )
Marvin says to himself, I'm going to look into this and find out the facts (evidence before I hand over that cheque, whatever )
Maybe Marvin has been told something by one of his proposed partners to be different to what he has heard from another source, whom he trusts.
Marvin finds himself at a place of confusion, and stops in his tracks. Sets off to get his info etc.
Marvin goes into he community to chat to people and try and suss out what is going on.
Marvin doesn't want to make assumptions or serious decisions based on heresay - he needs proof, written evidence in his investigation that cannot be argued against. Facts, truth, total confidence to make his decison based on the right information, for the right reasons. It's a massive decision to make. there is a lot riding on it, reputation, time, energy, money etc... if he backs this project he doesn't want it going pear shaped and there is scandal and his name is involved, he has to trust these people 110%. If they go down, they are gonna drag him down with them. He has to be very careful how he handles this one. He's not stupid, he knows what he's doing. But how can he be sure the other people are up to the job. (just like we do in business with staff and partners, perfectly normal)
So he's in the community trying to investigate his theories, but confusion arises. He cannot tell these people why he needs information, privacy issues, but he needs to get the right information off them. Break-down ensues, everyone is saying different things, everyone is talking at the same time, some are shouting, he cannot focus, he cannot understanad what they are saying. He feels like he is going around in curcles and is not getting what he needs.
Community are getting frustrated, they spend a lot of their time trying to assist him, rather than telling him they don't care F-off. So they are telling him but he is not hearing, comprehending what they are telling him, they get stressed, annoyed, distrustful, suspicious, angry, hurt, arguments ensue.
NOBODY IS GETTING ANYWHERE.
IS THIS KINDA LIKE IT IS, IN A NUTSHELL, REAL SIMPLE LIKE.
If so.
Marvin please make it simple. We want to help you. We also want the truth. We want to know we can trust people before we invest time, energy, money etc.
We don't want to know your business.
WHAT WE WANT TO KNOW IS WHAT EXACTLY YOU WANT/NEED FROM US TO SATISFY YOU AND THEREBY SATISFY US.
Please just simplify it in a nutshell and spit it out.
- What information exactly do you need.
- Who do you need it from.
- In what format do you need it.
- Who exactly do you need it about - names.
- Will the information contained in the previous discussions here about all of this subject suffice ? or not. Be specific.
- Do you need us to help you find that information. Yes or no. If yes
- If we all work together here and share the load and find the posts and copy and paste them here on the forum. will it suffice, yes or no.
- If so, please just tell us that is exactly what you need and we will do it.
- If so then I think we should start a new thread with a new title and make a list and delegate who is going to do what.
If I have got any of this right and we are on the right road please say yes or no, be specific, but keep it short. KEEP IT SIMPLE.
Does this help or am I just wasting my time also.
You have to understand things from our pooint of view. We have been insulted and slandered in all this, and none of it had anything to do with us at all. But I for one am not going to be anybody's scape-goat for someone else monumental mess because they neither had the foresight, intelligence, abilities, capabilities, honesty and integrity and qualifications to get involved in it from the start.
In our world, you do the crime, you pay the time simple.
much love
lost
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Dagney
The number and the action has been acknowledged, albeit unwillingly. I don't understand the debate either. Put a fork in it.
The question is are the bulk of the number still counted as "members" and have they been notified by PM as such, in lieu of replacing the FB group page? It is the ethical and considerate thing to do. Unless of course, AAWA just wants to tout the number of "members" who are perfectly happy to be there even though they don't know it.
Careful zed, I did exactly what Cedars asked me to do, I took them at their word, and now that is up for question. That is what is sad. I don't care if they sell t-shirts, they are a (edited to add) company corporation.
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wha happened?
a corporation Dagney, lol
And what is a corporations sole duty? To perpetuate it's existance
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tornapart
Ok Ty, I think I see what you're getting at.
I just think it's very sad that an organisation with such high ideals and a great deal of well meaning and probably months of planning and big expectations should come to this. Just because of a little lack of thought and trying to do things the easy/quick way.
I'm sure because of this many faders like myself won't come anywhere near it now because the trust has been blown sky high right at the start.
It's a real shame when it seemed so promising. I'm sure it will recover and move on and help many people but for a few the damage has been done and for some it may never be undone.
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Tylinbrando
The question is are the bulk of the number still counted as "members" and have they been notified by PM as such, in lieu of replacing the FB group page?
Yes 99% are still members.
Administrators have stated publicly this contacting by PM is "overwhelming work" and wont be done. Wall announcements have been made, but not every member would ever see that announcement. The Group has not been rebooted.
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Simon
They have demonstrated how an organization comprised of good people with good intentions can somehow end up doing bad and causing harm. How does that affect their criticism of the WTS? Hopefully, it doesn't give people a come-back by using them as an example of "good people, good intentions, people make mistakes" etc... to excuse the orgs behavior.