by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult
@Frazzled
'hopefully you will stay at Uni long enough to realise that the world is not as black and white as you paint it ...' - on this thread I've tried to apologise to people I've offended and accept correction when I've been incorrect.
I've tried my best to answer others' questions whilst tolerating a lot of avoidance from people regarding my questions.
Please don't mischaracterise my position and attitude in this way again. Thank you.
Your questions are being answered; you just aren't recognizing it because you think you've pulled a "gotcha," and people aren't answering in a way to make you "win."
All of the Holy books of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) are filled with some pretty vile stuff and can be twisted to support whatever people want. And verses can be excused away with any reasoning people want as well. All you have to do with the Bible is quote a lot of the just as horrible stuff from the Old Testament and use Jesus line about him coming to fulfill the Law, not do away with it to make sure it "counts," and, "bam," you can justify anything.
Western political systems hold Judaism/Islam/Christianity in check in Western countries, and keep them within certain bounds. If, say, Jehovah's Witnesses became their own soverign nation with the Governing Body ruling it, if Mormonism wasn't contained by the country but got their own soveriegn land, or if many hardcore Protestant Denominations got their own countries to rule as they wish, they would be far worse than much of the Middle East.
As I stated before (Pacopoolio - forum software gives me an error when I try to log in on my other computers), the problem is that (most) religions based on ancient holy books can be used to control and manipulate people. While the vast majority of Muslims in Europe and the US are fine, many of the groups antagonistic to the West have that as their religion, and their antagonism is based more on history and geographical location. The causation is the latter, the tool used to manipulate is religion (it just happens to be Islam in this case, but could be anything).
@KateWilde - "I agree that muslim women and children are especially vulnerable and don't have a choice in some matters."...
and isn't that just the point?!?! They (and men too) are in a position to reap extreme violence for choosing to go against the dictates of islam. It's not enough if the family allows dissent; the threat can then come from the community.
When push comes to shove, practicing islam isn't a conscience matter.
@Frazzled
'cause and effect in the Middle East is incredibly complicated' - but is it?
Yes, Middle Eastern demographics is complicated.
Yes, Middle Eastern history is complicated.
Yes, Middle Eastern politics is complicated.
But cause and effect? Are you sure?
Yes LUHE cause and effect is complicated in the Middle East - one can argue that ISIS is only powerful because the US invaded Iraq. One could also argue that the popularity of Islamic Fundamentalism is a result of the failure of Arab nationalism to turn back Zionism thanks to US backing for the State of Isreal and the ongoing instranisgence of Israel or that it was caused by the British Balfour Declaration that allowed large scale Jewish migration to the Arab Protectorate of Palestine which set the preconditions for the establishment of the state of Israel. One could argue that the Islamic Revolution in Iran was the result of the CIA's overthrow of Mossadeq and replacing him with the Shah.
The Middle East was much more secular in the 50s and 60s and 70s when Arab Nationalism was the dominant political ideologly. Egypt was one of the first countries in the world to have female government ministers. Islamic fundamentalism is a relatively recent phenomenon. History is about cause of effect and trying to disentangle causes and effect and unsurprisingly there is much debate among historians about cause and effect. So we could have a long debate about whether what I say might be cause and effect in the Middle East and in the end neither of us would be right and neither wrong. What gives you such brilliant insight that you can see this cause and effect so clearly whereas academics who have actually studied the area for many years will struggle. It reminds me of the old adage "Employ a teenager while he still knows everything!"
Also stop treating Islam and Muslims as one amorphous mass - you wouldn't do that with Christians and Christianity. There are enormous national and doctrinal variations.
Simon - shame on you is all I can stay. After starting this appalling thread you now threaten someone for criticising you in a post. Has JWN become North Korea?
No, he's been allowed to voice his opinion ad naseum but what he is NOT allowed to do is to tell people that someone said something that they didn't and to attack other posters simply because of their opinion (mine or anyone elses) or to tell other posters it will be great that they are soon dead. Some of these off-topic comments have been removed as future ones will be but they were made.
He's someone who has been kicked off this site before and is holding a grudge about something, I suspect my opinion that a guilty verdict in the Trayvon Martin trial would not be correct.
Now, let's please keep this on topic.
@Frazzled - I agree that US foreign policy leaves a lot to be desired. I believe that the Western invasion of Iraq in 2003 was at best dubious, at worst illegal. No doubt many posters feel the same way. I believe that innocent people killed by Western drones is a terrible thing, and must be avoided as far as practically possible.
The Western powers probably knew that Saddam didn't have chemical weapons, was no threat to the West and was not politically alligned with islamic extremism.
However, reading your last post I couldn't help but be struck by the fact that you seem to hold the US responsible for all of today's problems in the Middle East?
I'm not taking the p1ss, but is there any bad thing happening in today's world that isn't the fault of the US?
Our first war was with the Barbary Pirates and we informed them that America is no more a Christian nation than a Jewish or Muslim one because we have a secular constitution. The problem with Islam today is that Saudi Arabia has had the financial resources to promote the most intolerant variety of Islam for decades, which is now ironically threatening its very existence via Isis. As for the Shiites, the Iranian revolution shows what can happen when the cultural elite don't listen to everyday church folk. Limousine liberals can learn a lot from the Shah about what not to do. The Sunnis need a Caliphate again, one that can reign in the crazies, but Al Bigdaddy is like the clients running the madhouse. If only all Muslims were like the Sufis and the Aga Khanis.
In all honesty, someone could easily argue that the bible promotes violence. Therefor, people who accept the bible promote violence.
The Watchtower has promoted many unacceptable things but that doesn't make every Witness unacceptable as individuals.
In all honesty, someone could easily argue that the bible promotes violence. Therefor, people who accept the bible promote violence.
They could try, but I think that would be a much harder argument to win (possibly why most don't bother?).
Don't get me wrong, I think the bible is a piece of crap too but while the OT does contain a lot of violence, the core tenets of Christianity is in the NT and most of the belief is based on the notion that god is the one that will return and do any smiting that needs to be done.
With Islam god has commanded his followers to kill non-believers which is a very different thing and what makes things non-comparable.
It really comes back to this comparison not being equal - the core beliefs don't go to the same extremes and there are nowhere near as many followers at the extreme end of Christianity and those beliefs and teachings are certainly not defended by the mainstream of christianity.
There does not appear to be any condemnation of the beliefs and teachings of islam happening by mainstream muslims though.
