An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 118)

OnTheWayOut

That you don't have the... ummmmm... honesty... to admit that what "you" REALLY mean is "not answered by believers to OUR satisfaction" is... well, another thing altogether, is it not?

I will jump back in and admit that. You can pick apart what I say but the point will stand.

The questions have not been answered to my satisfaction. Maybe I am just better than the God you all excuse. While you can talk of free will and God not interfering in what evil Man is involved in is one thing, I have yet to hear any thoughts that satisfy me as far as the Indonesian children who were victims of the tsunami. I know if I were omnipotent, I would have saved them. The children who suffered and died in the Haiti earthquake- same thing, I would have saved them.

I get the issues when Cain kills Abel or when any non-mythical killing like that happens. Man supposedly abandoned God and that's the price. But it's a cold bastard that applies that to unborn children to develop defects and to people below the age of consent in natural disasters.

jay88

tec: Limited free will - limit the choices a person can make so that they cannot harm anyone else. They can only make the good choices. So if you go to make a bad choice, then you have something stopping you from following through and causing harm.

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The highlighted part is not true at all. A person can make a bad choice that severely causes pain for themselves. If a person wants to cause injury to themselves, I say have at it! However, freedom to kill another, maim another, to take someone else's freewill through slavery, death, manipulation is quite another matter.

As far as free-will is concerned, a small library can be written on the subject,..... for me it is too vague.

Free-will I assume would have a different definition according to, culture and geography.

N.drew

You say something like you will be superman for the children OTWO. You seem fixated on natural disasters. You want a world where there are none. Do you know if a world like that is possible?

I have another stupid illustration. I love to eat. and cook, and eat! I want to lose weight. But I don't want to stop eating the foods that I like. I believe the root of world's evil is there is something that world does not want to give up (food, in my illustration) in exchange for peace and security(weight loss in my illustration).

AGuest

AG could say Jesus eats babies and you wouldn't dare disagree.

Ummmm... wait, dear Q (ummmm, peace - I think...): First of all, AG would never say such a thing. Not even close. To the contrary, AG isn't... and wouldn't be... among those on this board that WOULD say such a thing. She has NO doubts, however, that some others would...

Peace...

A slave of Christ,

SA, who, yeah, understood it was rhetorical, but even so... but isn't pointing fingers...

jay88

jay88: There is no reverse, if we have millions doing bad, then it is a reflection on all those doing good.

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What I meant by this statement Tammy, is that we are our brother's keeper in a big picture way,.....

AGuest

I will jump back in and admit that.

Omigosh... I've actually got Jer to "admit" something...

You can pick apart what I say but the point will stand.

You sure? Let's see, shall we?

The questions have not been answered to my satisfaction.

Yeah. I think I've said THAT... ad nauseum. But I think you give yourself too much... ummmmm... latitude. YOUR "satisfaction" is not a reason for others to answer as YOU wish them to.

Maybe I am just better than the God you all excuse.

Well, maybe YOU think so, yes... I don't happen to agree... but I'm not surprised at ALL that YOU think that...

While you can talk of free will and God not interfering in what evil Man is involved in is one thing, I have yet to hear any thoughts that satisfy me as far as the Indonesian children who were victims of the tsunami.

Which, again, really is the bottom line: not the TRUTH... but answers that satisfy "you." Yeah, we got that. About 58 pages ago...

I know if I were omnipotent, I would have saved them.

You know this, do you? So, okay, you're not omnipotent, so I can't hold you to saving "them." Let me ask you, though: you WERE a WTBTS elder. How many of THEM did you "save"... ARE you saving... from the WTBTS? I mean, we both know that IT is evil. What's your tally man? How many did you save when you KNEW, while among them, that they were false christs and false prophets? When did YOU get up on that podium and say, "Hey, all of you... RUN!"? I mean, no, you weren't ALL powerful... but you certainly had a LITTLE power. What did you DO with it, Jer? I'll tell you: put even more back under Law... and sat in hypocritical judgment of them. Yes?

Now, I don't judge you; I get it: you did what YOU thought was "right" to do, at the time. Who, though, are YOU... to say what you "would do" IF you had power? You HAD power, Jer. What did you DO with it? Oh, that's right... you're NOT God... and so what YOU did... is excusable. Jer, Jer... with the same judgment you are judging... you're gonna be judged. Please... stop. While you [might be] ahead...

The children who suffered and died in the Haiti earthquake- same thing, I would have saved them.

You mean, like the "poor" JW children you "saved"? Heck, we know YOUR track record, Jer. You were a WTBTS elder. Now you want us to think that if you had God's power... you would do/have done something different? You HAD power, Jer. You DID. More than most, if the truth be told. And what did YOU use your "power" FOR? To DO? Again, I don't judge you - I forgive you. As the Most Holy One of Israel would. YOU... are the one who is so "righteous" that you "can't" forgive. Which I would wager was your "style" as an elder. Because your "self-righteousness" now... isn't as much a chance from what it was then, is it? Please... stop. Because you will force me to be even more brutally honest with you... and I don't think you can take that. It will certainly almost kill me...

I get the issues when Cain kills Abel or when any non-mythical killing like that happens.

Jealousy, yes. Rotteness... to the BONE. Meaning... all the way to the SPIRIT. I can see why you would get that...

Man supposedly abandoned God and that's the price.

Oh, please. The error was Cain's. He was WARNED that anger would overtake him... and cause him to sin... if he didn't get the MASTER over it. Again, I can see how you can see that. Because your anger has caused YOU to sin, even blaspheme. C'mon, Jer... you used to be "teacher" of these things. How is it that you can't even grasp what it is YOU used to teach? I will tell you: look to King Saul... and HIS "course"...

But it's a cold bastard that applies that to unborn children to develop defects and to people below the age of consent in natural disasters.

Yet, at one time YOU were one of those "cold bastards," were you not? At one time YOU taught that blood transfusions were "wrong"... and so children should die, instead. YOU taught that certain other medical procedures were "wrong"... and so others should die, instead. YOU taught that eating the flesh of Christ and drinking his blood was WRONG (for some, indeed most)... and so "shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men." YOU did. Why? Because you CHOSE to. No one made you. No one made you join forces with them. No one MADE you accept their teachings. Certainly, NO ONE forced you to become one of their "Pharisees." YOU pursued that course. YOU chose to accept it when they offered it. Why? Because YOU thought YOU were "special." And where did that get you? Here: hating God.

Who won, Jer? You? Or them? You might probably be past the point of hearing, but in case you AREN'T... may YOU be granted ears to HEAR... and get the SENSE of these TRUTHS. If you TRULY wish to.

Please, don't make me be any more honest with you. Please. I am ASKING you. Please.

A slave of Christ,

SA

AGuest

I believe the root of world's evil is there is something that world does not want to give up (food, in my illustration) in exchange for peace and security(weight loss in my illustration).

GOOD analogy, dear N.drew (peace, sister!). GREAT, in fact! Unfortunately, it won't amount to a hill of beans for some. Not the "answer" they want, unfortunately. Unfortunately. But good analogy, all the same!

Peace, my sister!

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

sizemik

Which, again, really is the bottom line: not the TRUTH... but answers that satisfy "you." . . . AGuest

And I'll jump back in at this point too . . .

Because here's a problem . . . why is it a "given" in this statement, that a satisfactory answer and the TRUTH are two different things?

The same could be said about the TRUTH and answers that satisfy "you" AGuest. You seem to have taken hold of some divine measuring rod as your own exclusive possession. All these indirect references to "some" and "they" and their perceived limitations. And you honestly can't see how that comes over as arrogant and condescending? I don't believe that's possible . . . even with a major CD problem.

Please, don't make me be any more honest with you. Please. I am ASKING you. Please. . . . AGuest

That's not honesty . . . it's a spiteful taunt . . . we can all see that. . . . A slave of who?

Twitch

Well said Sizemik.

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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