An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Tec, I have read the thread. I can weather the typical insults, but I had to say something because AGuest's last volley was nothing but a ridiculous lashing out. It was so ridiculous that it didn't even need to be addressed and only served to make her look bad.

  I gave plenty of room for the typical "on-point" insults or debate points, but she preferred a personal attack that people here know clearly doesn't ring true of me.

  Tec, it is really trying upon you to continue to defend her position. Please consider that, other than "whatever God does is automatically good," AGuest's thoughts here do not line up with yours.
• 

  jay88

  tec: Like a false accusation. Like a careless, thoughtless, callous word.

  We are all guilty of this tec,....we are adults in a debate forum,....if you lose sleep, because of what a person says here,.....(we will get over it and live another day).

  Freedom to kill/maim, is not freedom or freewill,...... it is barbaric.

  tec: Suffering comes from far, far more than simply physical.

  It starts with the physical,....... certain physical needs have to be met. Isn' t the spirit of a starving or a chronically ill person affected, by their physical condition?

  tec: Well, maybe not a keeper, because we don't own or control anyone.

  This is obvious.
• 

  sizemik

  It starts with the physical,....... certain physical needs have to be met . . . jay88

  Maslow's heirarchy of needs? Basic physical needs must be met before other needs even become recognised.

  Some African cultural traditions involve feeding and washing a guest in silence before any communication begins. Even Christ demonstrated that he understood that to some degree, by feeding a hungry audience before attempting to communicate.

  Suffering is concentrated around the most basic of the needs which aren't being met . . . ie; those closest to the base of the needs heirarchy.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
• 

  N.drew

  Who knew that bad could be so much fun! (so someone can think right here_____ where're have you BEEN?)

  I understand what AGuest is saying for I have thought the same thing more then once. "You're going to make me say something, I'm thinking it, (oh, you all might have been thinking I say everything I damn think, no, no I don't, that would be against An Important Bible Command) but I'm almost certain I'll be sorry if I say it.

  She has committed herslf to tell the TRUTH so that's what it comes out like. It's sounds insulting, but it's prose with spirit.

  I enjoyed your posts, Nancy! How did you get a picture of my little boy at Chucki Cheese's?

  This is good, I went to fetch a picture and really considered doing THE RIGHT THING. Which of course is NO FACE, because I have an understanding of the wrongness of putting in a regognizable (there's gog) face. I never read the rule, I made it up, but it's right, isn't it?

  I even have a theory about who the hell gog is. I think I'm not going to share it, because I have no way to prove it. But that's another non-subject.
• 

  soft+gentle

  N.Drew, please tell us who gog is.
• 

  N.drew

  I can't....

  ....is is a funny word. What I think is a theory, my theory*. A good theory, but just a theory.

  *Do you sense a smugness in moi? It is probably leaking from my imagined knowledge of who gog is. But like so many other things, I might be wrong, so must keep it to myself. I think I did mention it somewhere, I forget where, maybe on my blog? Do you have a theory of who gog is?
• 

  tec

  So . . . . because some others have done it . . . AG can . . . but OTWO can't without being a hypocrit. That's logically fallacious - Appeal to the popular.

  No, because others have done it... including OTWO... so pointing a finger and crying foul now is hypocrisy.

  My reference was said in jest, and you acknowledged that at the time . . . so you know very well it was not an insult my dear. Presenting it now us such, is misrepresenting the truth. You may think I'm a lot of things if it makes you feel better, but a liar I am not.

  Had nothing to do with your reference, Size. You were not the first person to compare a believer to Hitler on this thread (and I know you were jesting, as per the tribute thread). So I didn't misrepresent the truth at all. Nor think that you are a liar. But this is one of the big problems with this thread, imo. Not knowing the person you are talking to and so easily misunderstanding something that is said. You're pretty good at listening to the individual. I appreciate that about you, since so many put their own projections on the to the person speaking, and so never actually speak to the real person.

  But I wasn't talking about you at all. You never even tweaked my radar from what I was saying. Why do you think you had three 'believer' tell you that what you said hurt? (even in jest) No one eX pects that of you, because of the honesty and peace that you show. You seem to be here to truly understand, and not dismiss or discount or insult someone for their beliefs.

  But you're right . . . a lack of reasoning ability, logic, rationality and an inability to confront the point, are in short supply. Now I have deep reservations about the honesty shown here.

  Hopefully you see that this conclusion is based on a misunderstanding. One that some will continue to think is real, because they prefer to believe it.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  ShadesofGrey

  It's sounds insulting, but it's prose with spirit.

  Now, I am not going to say that the Holy Spirit said anything unless He said it to me. Seems dangerous, IMO.

  I was thinking about that insulting volley of Aguest's and I did think of one thing possibly: Why didn't the JW elder turned apostate help more people? Because in the end it wouldn't have done any good, and he knew that without trying? Just something to think about.
• 

  N.drew

  AGuest has the wonderful ability to reflect the spirit of the prophets (who I love) of The Most Holy One of Israel (who I want to know).
• 

  tec

  Much of mankind's efforts are to mitigate suffering and it is only the the last 200 odd years that we have had the means and tools to do so on an industrial scale. With modern knowledge and technology it is fair to say that in the advanced countries the so called curse of

  Adam ( to work by sweat to eat bread ) is over; with modern pain relief and medical procedures we can alleviate gods divine punishments and we can put off the point of death by many many years; technology is so empowering ( think how much your car and the Internet

  allows you to do ) that is seems highly unlikely that a return to the Garden of Eden, even with its nudity enticements, would be of any real interest - who would want to return to simply gardening? We've even managed to treat eat other more fairly ( womens rights ) and with

  less discrimination ( gender preference acceptance ) and - for those who wish to get cosy with gods racism ( go Israel - kill all other races babies and first born) we've even moved beyond that as we undo centuries of religion enforced racial prejudice.

  You tell that to the homeless (children included). You tell that to all the lost souls living in filth because of drugs. You tell that to all the abused children; abused wives; and yes, abused husbands as well. To the kids committing suicide. You tell that to the people who wouldn't even think about hiring someone with a turban on their head ( a terrorist in other words).

  You tell that to the people struggling day in and day out (the sweat of their brow) just to make ends meet and put food on the table. Low income/poverty line families. There are a lot of them. I used to be one. For a VERY long time. These people might not be ploughing the fields, but they're still working and eating by the sweat of their brow.

  I'm sorry Q. But I see a lot of suffering. Worse than that, in these first class worlds, I see a lot of people carrying about their lives as if these suffering people don't e X ist. Or have brought it all on themselves. So interested in our own comforts/pleasures that we turn our heads and pretend the problem isn't there. Or that it is more minor than what it is. Or we blame them (the homeless, the drug addicts)... that way, hell, we don't even have to feel guilty about doing nothing or not caring.

  Peace,

  Tammy