I prayed to Odin that this thread not die. Does that make Odin real?
An Old Argument.... does it hold water?
by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences
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N.drew
It'll die
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AGuest
You (and other non-believers) just don't like that believers don't blame God for it. That we actually take personal responsibility for the things that are our own doing.
OmiGOSH, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!): I don't think I've ever read ANYTHING else so sublime... and true... outside what our Lord has had some of us share. Truly. THANK you for that! I am often blown AWAY that some non-believers don't get this... but, rather, blame someone/something they CLAIM they don't even believe IN. Who really are the delusional ones??? You entire response here is awesome... and inspiring (as "we" mean that word!). Above some heads, yes... and WAY above some hearts, true, unfortunately... but... made MY heart "rejoice"!
AGuest - for someone so opposed to war you do choose an odd bedfellow since you hang out with your best bud space warlord.
So funny: you chide me for my beliefs, yet YOU believe in the false styluses of the secretaries/scribes, dear Q (again, peace to you!). As a result, you continue to err in your assumptions as to me. I "hang out with" the Son of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. That One is the image and very representation of the True God, JAH. Where, may I ask, have you seen... or heard... of him being a warlord? Truly, if HE didn't say it, do it, teach it... then neither did the Most Holy One of Israel. Contrary to what Israel (and particularly, the Jews early on) may have contrived. Between these two, there is only ONE real war that I am aware these wage... and it isn't they who start it.
The Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, is a God of service, not a God of war. He WILL act to protect those who belong to Him, yes, by means of the covenants He has with such ones... so long as the one(s) in question keep THEIR end of such covenants. It is a binding contract, after all...
How is Jah's latest battle going,
What battle? The Most Holy One of Israel isn't battling with anyone. The one known to you as "Satan" and "Devil"... and HIS angels...however, are. And it looks like it's going much better for HIM... than it is for mankind...
what's the casualty rate or is he somewhat underemployed with the defeat of Satan us atheists are dishing out by not believing in demons?
Not believing in demons doesn't defeat Satan, dear one; to the contrary, it gives him much more power! How so? Well, for one, you're a prime example: rather than blaming the one(s) RESPONSIBLE for what occurs with mankind (Satan and man)... YOU blame someone who has absolutely NO responsibility, but instead, actually provided a great means to FIX it. I mean, it's like, say, the Holocaust: the greatest way to take the sting and reality out of it... is to deny its existence, yes? So, of course, here you are... denying Satan's existence... while blaming God. Yet, you claim not to believe in God, either. But... you blame Him. Sounds like YOU are the confused one, dear one... and I can't see how that equates to 'winning' for YOU.
In contrast, I absolutely DO believe in Belial (who you call "Satan")... for I have seen him. I also believe in "demons" (or bad "daemons", spirits), as well as good spirits. I am AFRAID, however... of none of them. Neither Satan nor his angels... nor demons... have any power over me. Why? Because they are LOWER than the Christ, who has been given ALL authority... in the spirit realm AND physical realm. And over Satan. As a member of the BODY of Christ, then, that authority (over Satan and demons) is accounted to ME, as well... by means of the breath/blood/seed of God that I received FROM Christ: holy spirit. So, they (Satan/demons) don't mess with me, my dear. Haven't bothered in many, many years. They know better: I am not afraid of... nor do I succumb to... them. At all.
I suspect the amount of time he spends one on one with you would suggest the war loving super beings are having a quiet period.
Dear Q... I am going to change up the discussion at this point because you're not making sense any longer. Rather, all I hear is ire, anger, chagrin, even... maybe... jealousy?? You're not addressing my beliefs... but attacking me. You THINK... by attacking my God. So, I believe. So what? What is that to YOU? What is it that you feel you must become "nasty" and abusive in your speech? You're mad at the god depicted in the OT. Okay, I get that. But that's between you and him (who doesn't even exist, but for the sake of argument). Why come at ME? I have told you who it is I hear, who I speak to... what I hear, etc. Yet, you continue to insist that it is God Himself... rather than His Son. You continue to insist that the God I serve is the god created by Israel/the Jews. Yet, I have stated repeatedly... on this board and to you... that I don't know him, that he is FALSE... and that the God I serve is JaHVeH, JAH of Armies... and not "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" or "Jesus"... or any of these that you apparently THINK I serve.
If I were to continue to attribute false atheistic views to you, even after you have responded and attempted to clarify... you would scream "foul!" and accuse me of dishonest tactics and, well, all manner of deceit. Yet, you REFUSE to hear me when I say who it is I hear, listen to, follow, serve, worship, glorify, and love. You continue with YOUR [very false] perceptions... about God and Christ... which YOU received from man... while condemning ME as the one doing so.
Tell me, please, why does what I believe... and Who I believe IN... anger YOU so... get under YOUR skin... so that this is how you are now commenting?
I will say to you: if my God is a false god... so be it. What I am learning as a result of MY belief in Him... through His Son... has made me a BETTER person. I can accept YOU... and what you believe (or don't believe)... because I am neither your judge nor your "spiritual" keeper. You don't HAVE to believe what I do or as I do: I would STILL do what I could... and love (by showing love TO) you.
You, on the other hand, don't seem to be capable of that. Rather, I am watching your chagrin escalate... to the point of, again, abusive speech, even. Why? If what YOU believe is SO true... SO incapable of being disspelled... why do you need to MAKE anyone see your POV by getting angry, frustrated, even... abusive? Sorry, but I don't care WHAT you say... there's NO way I would come over to your "side"... given the "examples" YOU folks give. I've said it before and will say it again: I see NO difference between how YOU conduct yourself... and those who are super-hyper-ultra religious. Absolutely NO different.
And, as even you may have once said: if it looks like a duck...
Satan transforms himself into an angel of light in many ways. Religiously... as well as non-religiously. Either way, all I can see is that his light... as manifest by folks like YOU... is still dark.
Peace, dear Q, truly. Certainly for YOU... because I do NOT get that you have it, not based on your responses... not at all.
YOUR servant... still and always... and a slave of Christ,
SA
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Qcmbr
Because one day - I would love to be proven wrong - to be shown by action not words, by evidence not anecdote that there is something more than delusion in the claims of the supernaturalist. The stranger and more absurd the claim the more likely I am to critique it and even at times mock.
You stand as an outlier by claiming to be a mystic and your claims are about as far out as it gets here. The onus - whether you like it or not - is therefore upon you to back up your assertions or choose to be seen as a dotty individual. I used to teach a guy who knew where satan lived. It was real in his head but I knew that "the back of Tesco's in a cardboard box" was not likely to be Lucifer's hideout. Still he believed it. I've seen madness and it can wear the most harmless and pleasant of smiles. He never backed up any of his claims with anything solid.
You may not realise this but your responses are quite often as rude and aggressive as anything else seen here. Your tone is often very condesecending - hence why I'm much quicker to match your tone than I am with most others here. Normally I just enjoy reading people's contributions and don't feel too moved to stick my oar in.
This topic however, is at the heart of the philosophical and religious question - why do we suffer? This is so important a topic that all faith hangs on it - if god did not offer a way to escape suffering I suspect only the irrational or insane would be tempted to add to their burden by taking up the cross as well. It cannot be answered simply by saying that your special relationship with god answers it - you must realise most of us here do not have any such relationship so an appeal to your subjectve experience is of academic interest but not of any practical use - as you've made clear before - your god is only there for those select few who meet his criteria and the rest of us are toast. Any answers you have that square your conscience with Jah while innocent and unlearned billions bleed and die in agony ground into a merciless earth by natural and man made disasters are quite rightly to be derided as of no use to them.
Part of my ire is in the glib discussion that is used to excuse our mental gods and by extension ourselves as slaves of said gods and downplay the real tragedy and evil that requires countless deaths as part of a divine plan.
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watersprout
Let me know what language you read and I'll try to translate into it.
EH??
I never denied belief in God. Where you got that, I have no idea.
I apologise then. You are very agressive with some believers so it's my own fault I came to that conclusion.
One of the most annoying groups of religious idiots is the personal miracle people, who claim God is the janitor of their life, cleaning up messes and patching up cracks.
God hasn't cleared up ''my messes''.... My ''messes'' were my own doing, I never asked Him to sort them out.
That sort of anecdotal "evidence" is exactly the sort of thing that atheists prey on when arguing against existence of God. You going to tell us about "Andre", too?
You saying that i'm like the WT? You wanna say that to my face??
Yes, you're either a liar pushing your religious agenda or delusional.
I'm neither, so sorry to disappoint! Well no i'm not sorry!
When it appears that nobody intelligent, educated, sane, or logical believes in God, then who wants to share company with that lousy lot?
So now you are questioning my intelligence and sanity?? Seriously?? I would LOVE for you to meet me face to face and say these things to me. Because it's highly doubtful you would. Silly little man!
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THE GLADIATOR
Qcmbr, I read all your posts and though I seldom comment, I have to say that your posts are well thought out, precise, accurate, and convey all I would like to say but hold back from out of a reluctance to get involved in arguments that lead nowhere.
You have a grasp on reality that clarifies and distils with a conciseness that I admire. Never think your posts go unnoticed, they are an inspiration.
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bobld
AK-Asks"If you were God"
If I was God(Powerrful all knowing etc.)
I would repair the Earth.No more earthquakes,floods,hurricanes,droughts,tornadoes,Winter stroms.
Temperatures 65-80,rain when required.(No A/C or Heating required).
No weeds or nasty insects,(No chemicals or pesticides required).
There is more but you get the picture.
Just these few things and you can see man would not be ruining the earth.
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Qcmbr
Gosh. Thanks Gladiator.
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AK - Jeff
Interesting. A few pages ago I predicted that believers would have to take the tack they have here. What else do they have to offer besides anecdotal experience and quotations taken from nomadic camel-herders, and the occasional straw-man?
You know what guys - if you were all transported back in time and place to ancient Greece or ancient Egypt, you would believe precisely what those people believed! Your belief systems are the result of culture - Not fact!
Now - 3000 years later - you are all atheists when it comes to the Greek and Egyptian gods - aren't you? The difference is that myself and a few others here, have rejected one god more than you have. That's all. We have seen that the delusion is the same, just the name of the god and/or the time period has changed.
But your god is only true in your mind because of time and place and circumstance. I doubt many of you will allow yourself the freedom of thought that it takes to understand that. You are already atheists toward many gods of our very time. You likely reject Allah or Buddha if you are Christian. You think they are no-gods. Yet if you were born in Saudi Arabia you would believe in Allah - you would proclaim him the ONLY TRUE GOD!
Think about it. You know it is true. You will rail against the idea - because you think it impossible to compare your TRUE god, with what those PAGANS believed then or those false-worshipers believe now.
Jeff
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N.drew
There's no god? Why can we expect the same result from millions upon millions of stimuli? Why if we break the law are we afraid? Why are some things shy of light? Why do you even care about babies?
Something else I want to say. You, Jeff, are at a loss to explain why we so stubornly believe. But I can explain why you are so hard hearted. I won't, but I can.